OPENING (incompatible) DEMO's

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OPENING (incompatible) DEMO's

Postby Anonymous » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:48 pm

how big is an average demo? because why dont we just include (at least) one in the zdoom.wad file thing?

are they TOO big to include in that wad?

i dont know about anyone else, but its a BIG gameplay addition for me, to see DOOMGUY running around blowing people away, whilst i choose my options. :wink:

anyone else share the same opinion?

comon, cant we have EVEN one??
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Postby Ultraviolet » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:03 pm

You could always, uh, re-record your demos in ZDoom and put them in the wad for yourself. Wait, does ZDoom still support demo recording?
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Postby Anonymous » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:05 pm

but.... seeing my own demo (or anything MINE).... is so.... unoriginal and boring to me. but, if i must, then yes, id do that too.
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Postby Zell » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:07 pm

uhh they go out of sync, so i think they were removed...im probalry wrong :P
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Postby Anonymous » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:22 pm

only wrong in the fact that im talking about demos recorded in zdoom. not the original doom demos.

the reason old demos go out of sync is because of the tweaks added in zdoom. as i understand it.... all demos are, are recorded commands. not movies.


for example, what if, in an old demo you hit a guy with a rocket launcher, and he flew 5 yards away, but in the newer zdoom he flys 10 yards away?

in the demo, if you were to aim at the guy and shoot again, youd be shooting at the 5 yard point, and therefore, NOT KILL HIM with a second shot, then after that, the guy would follow you around, screwing up the demo.

and, im sure im not far off with this explanation.
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Postby Zell » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:27 pm

that happened in one of my duke levels once XD
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Postby HotWax » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:23 am

Yes, ZDoom still supports demo recording. To replace the stock demos, import them into a WAD with the names DEMO1, DEMO2, DEMO3, and DEMO4 (Ultimate Doom only).

It should be noted though that every new version will likely break compatibility again, so you'll have to rerecord the demos each time you upgrade.
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Postby Enjay » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:27 am

I actually think you can record demo5 demo6 demo7... and Zdoom will play them in order.

As for including them in Zdoom.wad, silly and pointless IMO.

I personally like the way Zdoom just ignores non compatible demos and switches between titlepic and credit. I think it is neat and tidy, avoids a level loading up whilst you are at the menu and doesn't cause problems when loading a WAD which replaces a map that one of the included demos is from.

If people wanted them, I guess they could be submitted somewhere, and those that wanted them to load could stick them in their skins directory, renaming them to demo1.wad, demo2.wad... That should work.

Oh yeah, and the upgrade point is a good one too.
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Postby Nanami » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:47 am

ZDoom doesn't support non-ZDoom demos so Randy (or someone) would have to record demos for it.

Demos are small in size, so that's not the main problem. Randy's too busy doing other things to do pointless things like record demos.

Although HotWax mentioned that most versions will obsolete old demo versions, ZDoom's been pretty good lately with backwards compatibility.

I'm sure if someone recorded some demos for Randy he'd appreciate it. Just make sure and die like the original demos. ;)
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Postby Hirogen2 » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:32 pm

Nanami wrote:Although HotWax mentioned that most versions will obsolete old demo versions, ZDoom's been pretty good lately with backwards compatibility.

No, it just broke again between 2.0.47 and 2.0.47i. My demo of Fbase 6 showed it gone out of sync :/
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Postby Nanami » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:51 pm

I imagine 48 will break 47 demos because of all the major changes, but usually it's compatible...
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Postby randi » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:06 pm

Nanami wrote:I imagine 48 will break 47 demos because of all the major changes

Indeed it will. Very badly, in fact.
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Postby Chris » Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:58 pm

I just had a thought.. since ZDoom demos don't seem to really like such engine modifcations, what would you think about making a completely new DEMO format(again)? This time, it could have more information stored in it, so it's less(if at all) reliant on gamestate behavior, and you can even use zlib's compression on it, if you don't already. Granted this would increase the size of demos(perhaps considerably), but the current demo system in ZDoom is practically worthless, and it's not like it'd take up the same size as a DirectShow video(which would only play in Windows).

Just a thought.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:11 pm

Chris wrote:I just had a thought.. since ZDoom demos don't seem to really like such engine modifcations, what would you think about making a completely new DEMO format(again)? This time, it could have more information stored in it, so it's less(if at all) reliant on gamestate behavior, and you can even use zlib's compression on it, if you don't already. Granted this would increase the size of demos(perhaps considerably), but the current demo system in ZDoom is practically worthless, and it's not like it'd take up the same size as a DirectShow video(which would only play in Windows).

Just a thought.


To ensure 100% compatibility, you'd have to include a copy of the map in the demo (To avoid running the wrong map) or at least a checksum that ensures the proper map is loaded (and then it would "break" if the map wasn't present...), and then you'd have to include all the actual physics. Things activating, speed of movement of floors/ceilings/polyobjs as well as each individual movement of every Thing in the level. After all, if a minor change is made down the road which makes an imp not fly as far, how far he should have flew would need to be included in the demo...

Is this really worth it?
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Postby Chris » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:59 pm

To ensure 100% compatibility, you'd have to include a copy of the map in the demo (To avoid running the wrong map) or at least a checksum that ensures the proper map is loaded (and then it would "break" if the map wasn't present...)


This happens already. A checksum of loaded wads at record time would obviously be the ideal choice.

then you'd have to include all the actual physics.


Not really. You could just keep track of everything that moves between tics, gets created/removed, ect. It'd basically act like a very precise script of actions, leaving as little to chance (read: engine behaviour) as possible.

Things activating, speed of movement of floors/ceilings/polyobjs


All of which could lead to a break in compatibility should something drastic change in the code, which is what I'm proposing this for, to prevent breakage; obviously at a cost(bigger DEMO files).

Is this really worth it?


That's ultimately up to Randy and how he thinks to implement such a change. Given enough knowlegde of the ZDoom source, it would be something I would at least look into.
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