quake and doom are competing?

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quake and doom are competing?

Postby sirudoom » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:00 pm

quake is starting to get bigger with mods now. but both games are similar, why cant there be just one game thats perfect and everyone makes mods for one game?

today i was comparing doom to quake. some main things.

doom

better 200 max health (theres even a 250 option, with PrBoom ect)
doom is faster.
there are related games (hexen is my fav)

quake

better jumping (doom its more a option)
map select
smooth weapons, you also get a cool axe.

can we combine both old good technologies?
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Hellser » Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:12 pm

I don't view Quake and Doom as competing. Not by a long shot. Doom has a massive community while Quake is more tight and smaller. Also those comparisons have big counter arguments; 200 max health -- technically, Quake guy has 666 health. ;) Quake is also faster (have you seen the speedruns compared to Doom?). Hexen II was built on the Quake engine -- so is Wrath: Aeon of Ruin. Doom had level selects built in either through cheats or command lines... and finally, smooth weapons is due to model interpolation which the original release of Quake never had AFAIK. So weapon and enemy animations were choppy.

Also, how can we combine both engines? What features will stay, which will get the cut? Ultimately, the Quake engine is better than the Doom engine by graphical, gameplay and scripting purposes, not taking the source ports into mind.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby sirudoom » Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:14 pm

you can get 250 health in quake 1 if you get two mega healths (ive never seen it happen). but every second your health goes down by one, till 100 health. with hexen, everyone knew it was the doom engine (but duke nukem came out three months later), hexen 2 could have been any engine. Wrath: Aeon of Ruin? guess vomitoreum is a doom engine game. if you are gaming on the couch how do you change levels with doom 1 & 2?
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Hellser » Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:53 pm

Now we're just nitpicking. But to answer your question: Quake has an in-world episode select while Doom has a menu episode select. Mind you, I'm talking about as the games were released. Modern Quake does have a level select - there is nothing stopping Doom from having that as well - outside of someone making such a menu that's sane and can detect all levels neatly. Both engines in the modern day are advanced. GZDoom (and GZDoom alone) is closing that gap with the likes of Darkplaces very quickly.

Comparisons such as health, character speeds and combat features is just silly. These things are coded and can be changed.

If anyone who does dev work for GZDoom or one of the Quake source ports wishes to chime in on my wrong impressions on what can and cannot be done, let me know. :P

AND YES! Vomitoreum is made on the GZDoom engine.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:55 am

Hellser wrote:Comparisons such as health, character speeds and combat features is just silly. These things are coded and can be changed.


Pretty much this. All relevant properties are fully configurable in GZDoom.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Redneckerz » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:07 am

sirudoom wrote:quake is starting to get bigger with mods now. but both games are similar, why cant there be just one game thats perfect and everyone makes mods for one game?

Because both communities serve different purposes? We have had attempts at cross-breeding before (Vavoom/K8Vavoom, heck Nash's Disdain attempts to bring something from Quake to GZDoom - Lightmaps) but they are two very different communities, which is what you expect when you go from a Doom engine to a full 3D renderer in Quake. The things you talk about change.

I have no idea why health pickups are the key of focus here - If we were to compare Doom tech with Quake tech, i would look at other things first.

sirudoom wrote:can we combine both old good technologies?

Sure, use Vavoom. That's the Quake renderer right there. Or try out K8Vavoom. The latter has some things even GZ does not support and it has more things in common with Quake than with Doom.

sirudoom wrote: with hexen, everyone knew it was the doom engine (but duke nukem came out three months later), hexen 2 could have been any engine.

I disagree. Hexen 2 makes it clear its a Quake engine game through some specific things, but the most obvious one is the movement and the sway of the weapon models. Quake 2 also has this specific animation which some other games have aswell.

sirudoom wrote:Wrath: Aeon of Ruin? guess vomitoreum is a doom engine game.

Wrath is Darkplaces, Vomitoreum is GZDoom. Its also rather obvious that the latter is a Doom powered game.

sirudoom wrote:if you are gaming on the couch how do you change levels with doom 1 & 2?

:? How is that related to anything said prior? You likely are using a controller then, and you likely use a port that can operate with a controller (And change levels accordingly)
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby sirudoom » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:47 am

i dont use a full keyboard much, but i found out the on screen keyboard works to change levels. my full keyboard barley works and i only have two usb extension cables (for mouse and half keyboard). i dont use full screen in doom.. if only there was a code for smooth weapons. but if doom was perfect, id have something like vomitoreum and have a real level select. make it more 2022 with good jumping, good looking weapons, nice looking level select.

ok picture doom with a axe, now do you see the connection with doom and hexen? the axe is the only thing i see in common with quake and hexen, but thats just me. i remember when quake came out and it looking more futuristic then anything else. i guess thats why.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Redneckerz » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:55 pm

sirudoom wrote: if only there was a code for smooth weapons.

There are mods for that. What i detail from this is that you want a smooth weapon mod autoloaded with Doom, i suppose.

sirudoom wrote:ok picture doom with a axe, now do you see the connection with doom and hexen? the axe is the only thing i see in common with quake and hexen, but thats just me. i remember when quake came out and it looking more futuristic then anything else. i guess thats why.

I feel the connection with Doom by its weapon sway and how the levels are built. Its an inherit limitation of how Doom's raycaster works.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby sirudoom » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:23 pm

a lot of mods show how doom would look in 2022. same with quake mods. but i guess we are stuck with two different engines. i dont know much about quake mods, i havent tryed any quake mods but when i have time im going to figure out changing levels and everything. i hope its easy like gzdoom.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 04, 2022 3:45 pm

Doom and Quake simply do not compete with one another. You like either one, or the other, or both. Or neither. That's it.

Everything else is just icing on the cake - and extremely subjective, at that. You might like one thing, someone else might like something else, that doesn't mean your view of it is fact, nor can there be a general consensus that everyone falls into. It simply is - some people like Doom, some people like Quake, with a little overlap with the likes and dislikes.

There isn't any sort of logic or reasoning that's going to make one better than the other, or for that matter "win" any sort of competition. It's only your own opinion that makes one better than the other - and everyone's is different.

The only thing that is fact is that Doom has a far more dedicated modding community than Quake has ever gotten - but hopefully in the future Quake will get some more love.

The thing is, though, I do remember the days when Quake was first released and it was a huge deal back then. The fact that it has not retained the same kind of love from the modding communities that Doom has says a lot about the game, I think, unfortunately, but that is just my opinion. I think Quake took a few step backwards in order to take a few leaps forward and that may have hurt the game's playability and its longevity.

However - it says even more that the majority of modern AAA 3D shooters released today can trace its roots back to Quake. Quake code is almost everywhere, even in modern Source engine games like Team Fortress 2 or CS:GO. The game itself may not have lived up to its hype, but the engine surely has endured - that is something that can't be said for the Doom engine when you disregard its popularity with indie developers.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Gez » Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:02 am

Redneckerz wrote:I feel the connection with Doom by its weapon sway and how the levels are built. Its an inherit limitation of how Doom's raycaster works.

The Doom engine doesn't use a raycaster.

Rachael wrote:The fact that it has not retained the same kind of love from the modding communities that Doom has says a lot about the game, I think, unfortunately, but that is just my opinion.

The Quake community may be smaller than the Doom community, but that's a quantitative difference, not a qualitative one. It has retained the same kind of love, judging from the many actively-developed source ports and the active modding scene that keeps coming up regularly with new magna opera and community map jams.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:10 am

Well I never said the Quake modding scene was dead, by any means. :) Arguably the size of Doom's modding scene could potentially be both its boon and its bane, though - with more people there's a lot more potential of bad apples who really sour the bunch, and nothing makes more of an example of that than the somewhat destructive zealotry some users have that still exists to this day. Though as I understand it, that exists pretty much in any modding community, so, maybe it's not that much of a downside, really.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby Redneckerz » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:00 pm

Gez wrote:The Doom engine doesn't use a raycaster.

But its just soo good to say that it is! It makes so little sense! :lol:

Rachael wrote:The fact that it has not retained the same kind of love from the modding communities that Doom has says a lot about the game, I think, unfortunately, but that is just my opinion.

Hmm, what i hear from authors here and there is that there is a huge sense of elitarian attitudes being predominant, far more so than the Doom community. Their focus also seems to be less about expanding Doom in more elaborate ways like custom games, but rather, big mapsets that take the most out of the Quake tech (Arcane Dimensions). And if all else fails, just fork it.

There is a lot of rendering power provided by the community, in the sense that there seem to be more programmers than mappers there. They also work on more aspects aswell -Improved lightmapping is one of them, but converting the renderer to Vulkan and multithreading aswell. Quake lents better to such modifications than Doom, but Doom, well... its creatively speaking a more inviting platform sort to say.
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby sirudoom » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:47 pm

if a game company hasnt done anything with the game for like 30 years i bet you can add stuff or change things. id love a doom remaster like what quake got last year, but if they dont do anything.. just upgrade it fan made style?
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Re: quake and doom are competing?

Postby wildweasel » Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:13 pm

sirudoom wrote:if a game company hasnt done anything with the game for like 30 years i bet you can add stuff or change things. id love a doom remaster like what quake got last year, but if they dont do anything.. just upgrade it fan made style?

Doom already got a pretty good update, a few years back.
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