Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

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Re: Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

Postby 3saster » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:25 pm

MatrixCL wrote:And right now it feels like there's no point in submitting any run if you haven't beaten (or came close to) the world record.

Hehe, that's the wrong way to look at speedrunning, speedrunning is not about beating a world record, it's about beating yourself, first and foremost. Though for Doom, since they still use demos, I'd say the time to submit is when you personally feel satisfied with your run. If the main source is on speedrun.com, then you can kinda submit whenever you get a new PB (especially if you're streaming), but that's another story.

BTW, co-op runs are absolutely a thing, look for any run marked CO on DSDA, or that has more than 1 author (the latter not marked CO are largely CN runs that were migrated). Looking at KDITD UV-Maxes, the single player record is 19:44 (your 21:07 is actually third place!), the two player record 16:27, and the four player record is 10:03!

Enjay wrote:Is there something particularly problematic about sharing GZDoom speedruns via captured video? I mean, the runs in this thread are videos. Does it need to be tied to demos if demos are not be the best way to do it?

There are channels that do turn demos into youtube videos, checkout the youtube channel I mentioned in my previous comment. It's not that you can't share videos of GZDoom speedrun, it's that the community has opted for (rightfully so if you ask me) to use demos instead of videos as the main source, for a number of reasons. A video to go along with it is common, but for people submitting times, the demo is considered point-of-reference, not the video. This is indeed a little different from most other speedrunning communities, but is done from a) being continued from the past (Doom had one of the very earliest speedrunning communities) and b) having a number of useful advantages (Portal is another game that uses demos for submissions). It essentially comes down to we have demos and they are a good choice, so we should use them.

I'd tell you that even if GZDoom had demo-compatibility, I still don't think it would be seriously used by speedrunners. While GZDoom's changes don't make a big difference in the feel of the game to most people, it absolutely can for speedruns. The other reason is that the game is, well, different and a source port, so ignoring the rolling release issue, it can set a bad precedent. The extreme case would be I just make my own custom source port that let's me finish levels way faster, but to take a more realistic example, what if a GZDoom version releases with a huge glitch that allows time to be saved in many places? All changes to a source port are, in a sense, arbitrary, whereas the original doom EXE does serve as a not so arbitrary reference. By extension, demos give a sort of assurance then that this port is accurate to the original executable.
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Re: Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

Postby Enjay » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:41 pm

3saster wrote:There are channels that do turn demos into youtube videos, checkout the youtube channel I mentioned in my previous comment. It's not that you can't share videos of GZDoom speedrun, it's that the community has opted for (rightfully so if you ask me) to use demos instead of videos as the main source, for a number of reasons. A video to go along with it is common, but for people submitting times, the demo is considered point-of-reference, not the video. This is indeed a little different from most other speedrunning communities, but is done from a) being continued from the past (Doom had one of the very earliest speedrunning communities) and b) having a number of useful advantages (Portal is another game that uses demos for submissions). It essentially comes down to we have demos and they are a good choice, so we should use them.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the attractiveness of demos but if there is a situation where they are not the best way to do things (e.g. an engine that - for very good reasons - cannot set demo compatibility in stone) then I don't see why demos have to be the thing that sinks the idea when other options exist and are already used.

3saster wrote:I'd tell you that even if GZDoom had demo-compatibility, I still don't think it would be seriously used by speedrunners. While GZDoom's changes don't make a big difference in the feel of the game to most people, it absolutely can for speedruns. The other reason is that the game is, well, different and a source port, so ignoring the rolling release issue, it can set a bad precedent. The extreme case would be I just make my own custom source port that let's me finish levels way faster, but to take a more realistic example, what if a GZDoom version releases with a huge glitch that allows time to be saved in many places? All changes to a source port are, in a sense, arbitrary, whereas the original doom EXE does serve as a not so arbitrary reference. By extension, demos give a sort of assurance then that this port is accurate to the original executable.

I agree and I think that if there was ever to be a GZDoom speed-running scene, it would probably be quite niche, and certainly not as big as the traditional scene. Graf also made good related points earlier in this thread.

But, to my mind, if there is a will to do it, all that the above means is that this is a new take, a new idea, a new scene. It doesn't have to owe anything to the existing scene, it doesn't have to emulate it in any way and it could be its own thing.

Perhaps a trial thread, rather than a full-blown community/sub-forum, might be a good way to test the water? i.e. a thread simply dedicated to people posting speedrun videos (and details of settings etc) and then other people either posting their own (presumably faster) runs of those maps or of new maps or of different play styles (pacifist etc). If it looks like it is taking off, then maybe a sub-forum or something might be considered viable. If it just fades out, then it would be clear that there wasn't enough interest to sustain it. I certainly don't see any harm in something like that. It would either be something that blossoms or self-limits by sinking.
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Re: Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

Postby MatrixCL » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:45 am

3saster wrote:Hehe, that's the wrong way to look at speedrunning, speedrunning is not about beating a world record, it's about beating yourself, first and foremost. Though for Doom, since they still use demos, I'd say the time to submit is when you personally feel satisfied with your run. If the main source is on speedrun.com, then you can kinda submit whenever you get a new PB (especially if you're streaming), but that's another story.

Very true! And I do mainly aim to improve my time. After all, I am my best competitor. :D But the thing it, once you thing you get a time that is as good as it gets (for you), you might feel like sharing your proud achievement.

I forgot about speedrun.com - that kind of ranking is actually pretty much what I was looking for. :)

3saster wrote:BTW, co-op runs are absolutely a thing, look for any run marked CO on DSDA, or that has more than 1 author (the latter not marked CO are largely CN runs that were migrated). Looking at KDITD UV-Maxes, the single player record is 19:44 (your 21:07 is actually third place!), the two player record 16:27, and the four player record is 10:03!

The SP record is now 18:21 and there are some more runs under my time on speedrun.com. I think that proves your (and my) point that submitting a run that is not #1 is more tempting to upload when there's a ranking system in place. ;)

Co-op has been done, but for some reason the 2P run did not have even close to 100% kills, yet it's marked as UV max. And again, there are no proper modern source ports that play with vanilla game mechanics and support multiplayer. Chocolate Doom is the only one, but I wasn't even able to get that to work on my LAN, and it's in 320x200 only. :roll:
Enjay wrote:Is there something particularly problematic about sharing GZDoom speedruns via captured video? I mean, the runs in this thread are videos. Does it need to be tied to demos if demos are not be the best way to do it?

Doom is the first game ever where speedrunning became a thing, and back then video's couldn't be uploaded. But more importantly, the demos can be checked for validity. You can check the player's movement in every single frame, which also allowed some cheaters to be exposed in the past. (Check this video for more details on that.)
Enjay wrote:But, to my mind, if there is a will to do it, all that the above means is that this is a new take, a new idea, a new scene. It doesn't have to owe anything to the existing scene, it doesn't have to emulate it in any way and it could be its own thing.

Perhaps a trial thread, rather than a full-blown community/sub-forum, might be a good way to test the water? i.e. a thread simply dedicated to people posting speedrun videos (and details of settings etc) and then other people either posting their own (presumably faster) runs of those maps or of new maps or of different play styles (pacifist etc). If it looks like it is taking off, then maybe a sub-forum or something might be considered viable. If it just fades out, then it would be clear that there wasn't enough interest to sustain it. I certainly don't see any harm in something like that. It would either be something that blossoms or self-limits by sinking.

Very good point, and I had thought of that. Just posting a UV Max run and challenging anyone to beat that. :) Even if only one or two take on the challenge, it would be a good arm wrestle already. ;)
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Re: Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

Postby drfrag » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:13 am

MatrixCL wrote:there are no proper modern source ports that play with vanilla game mechanics and support multiplayer. Chocolate Doom is the only one, but I wasn't even able to get that to work on my LAN

Choco, Crispy and RUDE are vanilla compatible and can be played online joining the Choco master server. That said Choco has a simple server-client networking model but if one of the players loses packets the game will freeze anyway. But i don't think you actually need that to create a master server, the host would join instead.
BTW i don't care at all about speed running, what's next UM max? :)
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Re: Could we make speedrunning a thing here?

Postby NeuralStunner » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:54 am

I appreciate speedrunning from a technical perspective, but will only actually watch it if it's entertaining. Zigzag bunnyhopping is nauseating and I really don't care about your time improvement. :lol:

I'm glad there's a defined difference between quirks (rocket jumping, strafe-running) and glitches (out-of-bounds skips, memory breaks). There's a bit of difference in philosophy between "complete the game as quickly as possible" and "reach the end sequence as quickly as possible". The former is where all my interest lies, whether from a viewer, player, or designer perspective.

As far as making it "official" here: There's really no demand for it, so it'd be a waste to try to force it. See if you can drum up some interest, first... we can go from there.
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