Noclip2 behavior

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Noclip2 behavior

Postby JPL » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:26 pm

I found the original thread where noclip2 was suggested and implemented, but the current behavior I'm seeing differs from one point on Xaser's original request:

The player's z-movement is completely unrestricted (i.e. he/she is allowed to fly above ceilings and below floors). This is the main thing that separates it from standard NOCLIP + FLY.


Currently, this is not the case - the player is not allowed to fly above ceilings or below floors, their Z position is clamped to the floor or ceiling of the sector they're in or, if they're out in the void, the sector they were last in. AFAICT it behaves identically to NOCLIP + FLY.

As some of the comments in the thread point out, a big use of this cheat would be to fly up out of your current room and see a view of the surrounding level from high up. The current behavior does not make that possible. I'm working on a very large map right now and noclip2 is only marginally more useful to me than regular noclip.

If this kind of feedback / suggestion(?) is better suited for the bug tracker I'm happy to create an issue there.

If anyone depends on the current behavior, maybe make a noclip3 that behaves as originally requested?
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Enjay » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:46 pm

JPL wrote:AFAICT it behaves identically to NOCLIP + FLY.

Not quite, it allows you to clip through solid 3D floors. Regular noclip doesn't.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Arctangent » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Another thing to note is that below and above sector planes ( except 3D floors, for obvious reasons ) don't really ... exist. They're pretty much the upper and lower bounds of the game in that particular area. It's why stuff like Hexen's wraiths fake the whole "rising from the floor" detail with sprite offsets and clipping - they couldn't make it so that they actually rise out from the floor due to this.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby JPL » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:17 pm

Arctangent wrote:Another thing to note is that below and above sector planes ( except 3D floors, for obvious reasons ) don't really ... exist. They're pretty much the upper and lower bounds of the game in that particular area. It's why stuff like Hexen's wraiths fake the whole "rising from the floor" detail with sprite offsets and clipping - they couldn't make it so that they actually rise out from the floor due to this.


I understand the many reasons this is the case for all gameplay code, but is the renderer (GL or software) actually incapable of rendering from such positions? Looks like clipping the player Z to floors and ceilings happens in P_ZMovement, so I'm guessing it's at least possible for things to exist outside that.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Dark-Assassin » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:06 pm

But anything with +NOINTERACTION completely ignores floor and ceiling heights.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Rachael » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:23 pm

Arctangent wrote:Another thing to note is that below and above sector planes ( except 3D floors, for obvious reasons ) don't really ... exist. They're pretty much the upper and lower bounds of the game in that particular area. It's why stuff like Hexen's wraiths fake the whole "rising from the floor" detail with sprite offsets and clipping - they couldn't make it so that they actually rise out from the floor due to this.

This is not quite true.

What's actually happening is an artifact of the old Doom engine code where everything was clamped every tic into the bounds of the plane heights. Z-height in actor code is nothing more than a fixed/float and its relativity remains constant to 0-height no matter what sector it is in. Therefore, if you remove the clamping, it is indeed possible to pass through floors and ceilings.

In the Doom Source release, it was possible to set a cheat flag that would actually allow you to pass through floors and ceilings, as well. This was also possible with the DOS releases by changing the cheatflags in your savegame. This cheat was never official, though, and I am not quite sure why. It had other effects, though - like not having proper movement at all. Momentum was pretty much stalled in every frame and you moved like a turtle.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Bauul » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:47 pm

Wouldn't there also be the issue that the renderer would still presume you were inside the sector's ceiling/floor gap and only render the stuff you could see from that seg?

I think we'd all love the idea of being able to sail high above a map and view it all in it's entirety, but I wonder instead whether most of the map wouldn't be rendered.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby JPL » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:01 pm

Bauul wrote:Wouldn't there also be the issue that the renderer would still presume you were inside the sector's ceiling/floor gap and only render the stuff you could see from that seg?

I think we'd all love the idea of being able to sail high above a map and view it all in it's entirety, but I wonder instead whether most of the map wouldn't be rendered.


Yeah, this is how it works in most engines that do this... memories of seeing entire Bioshock maps as I noclipped to a spot for testing. It's a debug command, so I think that's fine.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby JPL » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:09 pm

JPL wrote:
Bauul wrote:I think we'd all love the idea of being able to sail high above a map and view it all in it's entirety, but I wonder instead whether most of the map wouldn't be rendered.

Yeah, this is how it works in most engines that do this... memories of seeing entire Bioshock maps as I noclipped to a spot for testing. It's a debug command, so I think that's fine.


Worth pointing out that with the current noclip2 behavior, in a great many larger maps you can already see a lot of the total map geo if you're flying around out past the map's boundaries. Again it's a debug command so there shouldn't be any of the usual performance considerations.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Xaser » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Oh huh. There's a blast from the past. :P

Yeah, trying this out, I'm indeed a bit dismayed that I can't cross the map's vertical boundaries. Seems Randi caught the "3d floors" use case but missed the earlier bit.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Rachael » Fri May 19, 2017 7:26 am

Purely out of my own interest, I went ahead and coded a version of this that allowed me to pass through sector floors/ceilings and saw very quickly why Randi coded it the way she did.

Suffice to say, there's some work to be done before true Quake-style noclipping can become a reality. :(
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Gez » Fri May 19, 2017 7:56 am

What were the problems exactly? Knowing that 1. it's a cheat, 2. the regular noclip is still around, and 3. noclipping has always caused visible glitches so it's a fully accepted part of the deal if it doesn't look good.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Rachael » Fri May 19, 2017 8:33 am

The view was still clipping to the floor/ceiling planes, and it also crashed. Those were the more apparent problems, at least. I never even bothered to look at the issues that may have been deeper in the code.
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Gez » Fri May 19, 2017 8:37 am

What about in GL mode?
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Re: Noclip2 behavior

Postby Rachael » Fri May 19, 2017 8:42 am

That was in GL mode. I didn't look at it in Software.
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