The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.

Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Undead » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:05 am

What's up with the chromatic abberation in the screenshots?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:13 am

It's a lense effect in the latest GZDoom versions. I think it doesn't interfer with the pixelated style so I kept it.
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:47 pm

@this post:

Tormentor667 wrote:Joomla yes or no?!
I do understand the points mentioned that are against Joomla as a CMS system. The benefits of Joomla though are that it is a very intuitive and actively developed system (updates are frequent, but easily installable). Next to that I own a lot of subscriptions for addons (just like Widgetkit that is used most on the site) that I can simply share and that I don't have to program from sratch. Beyond, it's the CMS that I work with everyday, so I can do all sorts of things without a lot of thinking and effort, which makes things also more benefitial for me. Yes, I am sure one can do the same thing statically with Dreamweaver, but it would be like reinventing the wheel.

I'll reinvent the wheel, then. It's a lot faster for me to type "nano About.php" - make the required changes in HTML code, save, and see the changes effect instantly. I've also been told that Joomla also has security issues - regardless of the case, with its other issues that is enough to immediately support the case of NOT adopting it.

What we can do is take the HTML and CSS from Joomla's output and use that. That's what we'll do.

That's final, Torm. Do not try and push Joomla on me.

Tormentor667 wrote:Server load, server bandwidth, server usage
Concerning the doubts mentioned: If the server question is something you worry about, I still volunteer to host the landing page on my server. From there linking to the forums, bugtracker and other things would be a solution as well. I am running a business shared server package that has unlimited (yes, really unlimited) traffic and a lot of other benefits, private customers don't get - well it's expensive, so I can expect that :P Though this is just a possible solution. If the site gets hosted at your host (and this also goes towards Graf Zahl's question), with Joomla (yes, another reason why I like that CMS) I can control what content of the page can be stored in the browser cache, which will also heavily decrease the server load.


I have a feeling this is going to create an even worse situation for me, at this point, than what is already in place. For now, the site is in a good place and it should stay there. Considering I've told you at least 4 times now that I do not want Joomla, and you discard it and pretend that I can change my mind on it, putting the site onto your servers definitely does not seem like a good idea.
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:13 pm

Eruanna wrote:I've also been told that Joomla also has security issues - regardless of the case, with its other issues that is enough to immediately support the case of NOT adopting it.

Says who? I am using Joomla for more than 50 web-projects for business customers and I don't have any security issues or any other problems that make me think it's the wrong choice. I don't want to be offensive Erunna, just want to point that out, but for me it sounds more like you want to avoid Joomla because you have the feeling it's additional effort to you. The benefits overweight the disadvantages by far (actually I don't see any after all). Though, it's not that I want to force you to use Joomla, it's your decision in the end. One question though:

Eruanna wrote:What we can do is take the HTML and CSS from Joomla's output and use that. That's what we'll do.

If you decide to use the static output of the page, how do you expect to do changes later that involve dynamic changes when all of it is hardcoded? E.g. adding new mods to the screenshot overview, adding news to the front page and the blog, etc.

Eruanna wrote:I have a feeling this is going to create an even worse situation for me, at this point, than what is already in place. For now, the site is in a good place and it should stay there. Considering I've told you at least 4 times now that I do not want Joomla, and you discard it and pretend that I can change my mind on it, putting the site onto your servers definitely does not seem like a good idea.

Maybe I missed the point. When I understood correctly, your main problems with Joomla (next to the security issues, which is only a shot in the dark) are the performance drawbacks. That's why I offered to spend the server for the landing page. If that's not the point, then I don't get it why Joomla isn't an option as a CMS.

When developing webpages for companies and also private projects, I always try to keep in mind what the future brings - not only in terms of updates (I am not talking about the CMS but also script libraries or even worse PHP server changes) but also when it comes to adding new content. With Joomla I have a reliable system that automatically can be updated every time a new core update is released. With Joomla's extensions, I have tools that can be updated the same way when it comes to updates for script libraries or things like that. With Joomla, I have the possibility to easily edit and add new content from time to time no matter where I am which makes updates to the site easier and more likely. Now, when I turn everything into static code, imagine how much effort it is if you want to add new content, new scripts, news, and all the other things that require a FTP server and a HTML editor like Dreamweaver. Next to that imagine the redundant data that gets created if you move from a MySQL database to a HTML/File system.

I know what i am talking about, doing websites now for 8 years in my company, it's not that I want to convince you to use my system but to use a modern and up-to-date system that is - all of that - enduring. :) That's what we all want, don't we?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:16 pm

If you decide to use the static output of the page, how do you expect to do changes later that involve dynamic changes when all of it is hardcoded? E.g. adding new mods to the screenshot overview, adding news to the front page and the blog, etc.


You ask that as if I don't know PHP at all.

What language do you think Joomla was designed in?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:31 pm

@Tormentor:

I think it should be obvious by now that Joomla is a no-go. You cannot force the administrators here to use a system they absolutely do not want to deal with and that point has been made abundantly clear several times. The main question now is - can that stuff you made be used on its own or does its life depend on Joomla backing it?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:41 pm

Eruanna wrote:You ask that as if I don't know PHP at all.

Sorry, I didn't want to sound dismissive. If you think you can turn this into a working and easy editable static variant, I am curious how this will look like.

@Graf Zahl - I am not sure if it can be done to be honest, I don't have enough knowledge to turn everything as it is now into a static HTML/CSS page. Furthermore if the decision is made that this gets turned down into a static HTML/CSS page, I can't give any support or help with it anymore afterwards - not that I am huffy, but I simply doubt that the additional effort is motivational for me. Compare it to your work on GZDoom when significant render-changes have been made in the past and you stopped working on it in the meantime...

I know that I can't be disappointed or frustrated, that's not what I am as this whole project was never assigned to me in the past - it was simply riscy advance :) My point still stands though - it would be worth taking some time, learning about Joomla and reconsider the facts. If there is interest, I could also give you both access to the administration panel so you can take a closer look.
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:53 pm

@ Tormentor667: It's not as static as you think.

Notice how whenever myself, Randi, Graf, Rex, or anyone else who we authorize, post in our respective news forums, it automatically goes to the front page of the site? How static do you really think that is? (Ever noticed how when Randi edited the title of her post, the revised headline instantly went to the front page, as well?)

This is due to a script that Randi developed a very long time ago. It works. With the help of Gez, I recently developed another script that does the same pulling pages from the Wiki. It works almost exactly the same as Randi's script - except, obviously, it uses MediaWiki-generated content.

As it is ZDoom is not a very scalable site, I really see absolutely no reason to adopt a system that entails such a significant risk. If you feel your involvement stops right at the point Joomla does - that's fine. If it really matters to you that much, there's nothing stopping you from keeping a local copy of Joomla on your server so that you can update that, instead, and we can just grab the HTML/CSS bits ourselves.

You like to brag you've been doing this web design stuff for 8 years - fine - but keep in mind we're not incompetent web designers, ourselves. I, too, have experience with it - and I also have experience with having my site get hacked. And let's just say - even without worrying about security - it's not like Joomla doesn't have issues of its own. (Sorry for doing that, but it does help to illustrate my point)

Basically it comes down to this: The smaller and less dynamic the system is to start with - the more secure it likely will be - and *also* the harder it will be to screw up. That might make it far more difficult for someone like you to work with it - but for me, it's peanuts.
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby dpJudas » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:57 pm

I don't really think this discussion should become a discussion about what type of system is best. Nothing good will come of that. We might as well be discussing if C++ or C# is the best programing language. And should we use dynamic or static typing?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:13 pm

@Eruanna - I didn't know that these things actually happen automatically, still I think that turning the site as it is now into the static system is another thing when it comes to complexity. Though, it's not that I can do that so I can't say how much effort is involved.

It's not that I don't want to work on the page after Joomla turns into something else, it's just that it takes much longer for me to do changes on a static PHP/HTML page than it does on my Joomla-CMS-based pages - simply because I am used to it and I have the right software for it. Pulling the page out as it is took me about 12-14 hours - if I imagine doing that with Dreamweaver... hell :)

I definitely don't want to derogate your skills when it comes to webdesign but neither DRDTeam nor the new forum style of ZDoom is well-designed when it comes to aesthetics, structure or usability (keywords: responsive design). Don't take this personal, you don't earn your living with webdesign and that's the same reason why I am not a craftsman - wether as a job or in private life, I simply have two left hands :) That's why I trust other people's opinion and experience when I need help with something. I don't brag with my job, it's simply a matter of fact. It should just help people around trusting me as my experience with things like that don't come out of nowhere.

Still, I have to agree with you with one point you made: The more complicated a system is, the more ways you have to break it - that's true. And that's why I'd offer technical and visual support when the system stays Joomla based (because I simply can do that without too much effort).

Okay, I hope I don't sound like an asshole :) It's all not meant mean!

Eruanna wrote:it's not like Joomla doesn't have issues of its own.

Good spot, but this didn't have anything to do with Joomla itself but with the cache folder being unwritable after I changed a few things through CHMOD on the server. Hower, Joomla 3.6.x is secure as it is now - there is no significant risk at all.
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:23 pm

dpJudas wrote:I don't really think this discussion should become a discussion about what type of system is best. Nothing good will come of that. We might as well be discussing if C++ or C# is the best programing language. And should we use dynamic or static typing?


This is very true, and I never meant for it to come to a debate like that.

Tormentor667 wrote:@Eruanna - I didn't know that these things actually happen automatically, still I think that turning the site as it is now into the static system is another thing when it comes to complexity.


If you want to know how complex and dynamic the system in place really is - I invite you to take a look at this page and ask yourself who honestly has the time to keep that manually up-to-date? :twisted: I must be a severe code-monkey to be keeping pace with HTML updates on that, especially when I am sleeping!! (Again - that's another script Randi wrote - it's actually in two languages - Lua and PHP)
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Tormentor667 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:25 pm

Brilliant I have never seen this before and that it's even there :)

Well, okay, let's pull things together, we both want that thing to work now, so what would you suggest as next step?
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:34 pm

If you do have dynamic content, just remember that I can write scripts for it. I prefer randomizers, those are easy and effortless to maintain. That's what I was going to do with the screenshot system. Having an hourly rotational system is also possible.

Other than that - like I said the page does need static non-javascript elements fully functional. A notable fraction of the people who come here have Noscript installed - even if they whitelist ZDoom.org itself.

With responsive design - that's easier than you think. The server sends the exact same page to all clients no matter they be mobile or PC users. It's up to the client's browser to decide exactly *how* to render it. Usually, most sites have a CSS rule that when the viewable area falls below a certain scale, it activates the "mobile version" which has the flyouts and scrollers. You can actually see this in practice on DRD Team's forum - it uses an unmodified default phpBB3.1 template (with the colors changed) and they designed that specifically in mind. It's one of the reasons why I want to upgrade this forum. (You can also use PC to view a mobile version of most sites simply by hitting Ctrl-+ multiple times until the content collapses)

So do what you need to do - educate me on what parts need to be dynamic and where it should pull content from. As dpJudas said - it's easy enough to separate the blocks of code Joomla generates and scriptify whatever parts needed on my own.

(And by the way - yes, you are allowed to plug R667 and DG Media - but keep it subtle)
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby TechnoDoomed1 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:35 pm

In my opinion, Torm's page looks awesome and rad as f***, and results in a nice touch of modern feel to the game while still feeling retro enough.

Congrats, man! :wink:
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Re: The future of ZDoom, GZDoom, and QZDoom, and this site.

Postby Gez » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:46 pm

Tormentor667 wrote:It's not that I don't want to work on the page after Joomla turns into something else, it's just that it takes much longer for me to do changes on a static PHP/HTML page than it does on my Joomla-CMS-based pages - simply because I am used to it and I have the right software for it. Pulling the page out as it is took me about 12-14 hours - if I imagine doing that with Dreamweaver... hell :)

Feel free to use Joomla for prototyping your suggested relook, but please understand and accept that it will not be used for the real thing.
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