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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:23 pm
by Blue Shadow
NeuralStunner wrote:Additionally, I sometimes use Crouch to duck Revenant missiles.

Yeah, instead of taking the missile in the face like a man... cheater. :P

Enjay wrote:I like running over the tops of barrels. Don't know why.

Be careful not to fall into one of them; that goop isn't easy to get rid of, trust me. :wink:

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:57 pm
by Gez
It does tend to distract the player with long soliloquies on the environment and how being radioactive cannot be good.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:05 pm
by The Ultimate DooMer
Doctor-Dos wrote:Why would you jump when it wasn't needed?


You've never seen me play, I use jump (and crouch) for allsorts - fighting, collecting, backtracking, anything goes really (well, I play on -fast settings that the maps aren't designed for, so I figure it's ok to use a playstyle the maps aren't designed for). I try not to take shortcuts to places I've not been etc. but since I always clear 100% even that's not really an issue if I do.

(I should upload a demo sometime, but (G)ZDoom is always a bit dicey for that and I can already hear the pitchforks being readied :P)

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:50 pm
by wildweasel
I'm the kind of person who will actually go into the gameplay options and enable jump and crouch, solely because of the "tactical placebo effect" - I feel like I can shoot more accurately and take less damage if I'm crouching. I also crouch to limit my movement speed if I want to round a corner slowly without just completely diving out and exposing myself. Also useful to take cover from pesky hitscan enemies in certain levels. As for jumping, cover-vaulting is a fun thing to do sometimes, especially when you're down to your melee weapon. =P

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:38 am
by Matt
Seconding everything WW said. As for slowing down, I do of course actually have +speed bound, but guess which key my muscle memory goes to first...


EDIT: Maybe a bit off topic since we're discussing SP, but after a few rounds on a Zandronum DM server it occurs to me that just the thought that I can't jump to climb simple obstacles causes me to screw up. A lot. More.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:38 am
by CorSair
I try always follow the wishes of mapper(s), but I still leave jump and crouch on, either for fast backtracking to supplies or if I get myself screwed totally, then I use jump or crouch to get out the harm's way.

And I usually got bit of trouble when you need to jump or use crouch in that map, but you forget that. :P

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:47 pm
by XutaWoo
On the 'why would you jump' question, well, I'm just always jumping. It feels faster, makes my dodges seem cooler, and it's just fun to bunny hop around.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:12 am
by ReX
I, too, have become accustomed to having the freedom to jump in a game. And, unless the author specifically states that jumping should not be used (or it's for vanilla DooM), I will jump. On occasion I will discover that there are areas not intended to be jumped upon or into. In that case I simply go back to a savegame or NOCLIP out and resume the game. Unless the map is so shittily designed that I constantly get stuck or break the gameplay, I rarely rage against the author for not stating that jumping is not allowed.

My map-making preference in ZDooM is to always allow jumping, and design the map carefully so that the player can only jump to "allowed" areas, and not get stuck inadvertently because of jumping. If the map is intended to be "realistic", I will make sure that constructs such as fences, bridges, windows, etc. are built accordingly. For example, if a player should not be allowed to jump off a bridge, a set of railings can be created that is too high (e.g., 64 units) to jump over, and is spaced to prevent crawling under (e.g., 24 units). If a player is not meant to jump through a window, it will have "glass" or bars, or will be too narrow to pass through. [Making a linedef on the window impassable would detract from the "realistic" aspect of the game, in this case.]

My map-making preference in vanilla DooM is to design the map so that a player that is using jump will not be able to circumvent the intended progression or accidentally get stuck because of jumping. Somethimes this means using impassable linedefs, and at other times creating other barriers.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:32 am
by CaptainToenail
Dislike crouching, it just feels wrong for some reason, whereas jumping doesn't bother me at all (as long as it is a jumping-allowed map of course!).

It is kind of crappy though when you can duck under projectiles or jump on top of monsters and run along their heads, dirty cheaters! :woh:

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:33 am
by Gez
Even better: lure a demon under a ledge, jump atop the demon and from there on the ledge. Shortcut! :D

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:53 am
by Blue Shadow
So, by the looks of things, I'm the only weirdo who doesn't use jumping in a casual manner. :P

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:52 pm
by Ethril
Gez wrote:Or climbing on the enemies themselves and crowdsurfing to safety. It works fine with demon mobs. Sure, you'll probably get chewed a bit while doing so, but no more than if you had let yourself be surrounded.

Also, to use shortcuts. I don't jump to break maps, but if I want to backtrace and I can go back to an area I already explored legitimately with a jump or a crouch instead of having to go all the way around ten corridors, twenty doors and five elevators, I will.


Aye, this. I (usually) don't try to sequence break with jumping/crouching, unless I'm playing AEoD or something and my options are A. Jump over the short ledge and skip half the map or B. Fight the Demilich, Tchernobog and Lo Wang at the same time in a room smaller than Dead Simple.

anyway, yeah. it bugs me when a map clearly has zdoom features in it but doesn't tell you whether or not you're allowed to jump. i'm like, "is this shortcut intentional or am i breaking the map?" "am i allowed to jump on that pillar and grab the megasphere or am i supposed to find a secret teleporter or use that archvile to launch me up there or what?" "its not cheating to crouch into this alcove to grab the drops from those zombies right?"
i mean if a map has zdoom stuff in it then the mapper is most likely aware of the existence of jumping/crouching, but it's bad to assume that jumping is legal just because they didn't disable it.
basically my point is that i like to know if obvious jump/crouch shortcuts are there on purpose or if i'm supposed to go around.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:24 pm
by chippo
Misfit5150 wrote:Is there a way to tell whether you should be able to jump or not?


Some of the earlier answers said, "well, no, not really. you should try some things and especially read the documentation". Some of the later answers seemed to say that if you have a recent source port, you can tell by setting some option and then testing whether you can jump or not.

I'm using gzdoom 4.2.1 and the only option I can find is "Allow jump", with settings 'On', 'Off' and 'Default'. With it set to 'Default', it mostly works that testing whether you can jump tells you whether the map author intended jumping. However, not always. Sometimes jumping works, and then halfway through the level, you realize that jumping was not intended.

Is it technically impossible for a program (gzdoom) to tell whether the map author wanted the player to jump, or just not implemented yet?

That would certainly seem to be the case for "Allow freelook". When set to 'On' or 'Off', it does the obvious, but 'Default' is the same as 'On' for all games, including the originals.

I'd dig an option that said "Regarding jump,crouch,freelook, do EXACTLY what the map author designed for", 'On'/'Off'.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:04 pm
by wildweasel
Such an option does already exist, and it's called Default. The thing is, though, the option has not always existed for an author to designate allowance for jumping, so ZDoom assumes it is allowed in any case where this is not explicitly allowed or disabled.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:49 pm
by Matt
Seems like "Presume Allowed" and "Presume Disallowed" instead of "Default" might be nice for that kind of situation...