To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

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To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Misfit5150 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:50 pm

As you know, players can jump in ZDoom. I disable this feature when playing original Doom levels, because jumping wasn't intended and being able to simply jump to a location that's supposed to be inaccessible will mess up the entire flow of the level. Now with levels made specifically for ZDoom, I'm often not sure when to disable the jumping ability. Sometimes the WAD writers tell you in the accompanying documentation. Other times it isn't mentioned. Is there a way to tell whether you should be able to jump or not? Is it better just to assume that you can't unless told otherwise? Anyway, thanx for any feedback.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Project Dark Fox » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:52 am

Lately it will be obvious. Try jumping. If you don't jump, you're not supposed to. If you can, you might need it, or won't interrupt any playflow at least.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby ReX » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:34 am

Misfit5150 wrote:Sometimes the WAD writers tell you in the accompanying documentation. Other times it isn't mentioned.

This is a touchy subject for some. On one hand, important information about gameplay needs to be included in accompanying documentation and some authors may neglect to do so. On the other hand, some (if not many) players simply don't read the documentation. It helps if the wad author, in addition to the standard text file, includes a separate file that has a name that stands out (something like gameplay.txt, or readthis.txt). Players will likely notice such a file in the zip package and open/read it.

Is there a way to tell whether you should be able to jump or not? Is it better just to assume that you can't unless told otherwise?

PDF put it nicely. If the wad author has intentionally disabled jumping (e.g., via a MAPINFO instruction), you will not be able to jump. Simply testing your jump key at the start of the map will tell you if jumping is specifically not allowed. If jumping is not disabled, and there is no relevant documentation, then you may need to figure out if jumping is required or not. In other words, just because jumping hasn't been disabled, don't assume jumping is allowed.

Project Dark Fox wrote:If you can, you might need it, or won't interrupt any playflow at least.

I'm not quite sure this will always be true. If the author has not paid attention to ZDooM's jump function when designing maps, there may be areas where the player can unintentionally get stuck. [Of course, this sometimes happens even in maps designed with jumping in mind, but it's likely to be more frequent in ZDooM maps where jumping is not required but not disabled.]
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby CaptainToenail » Wed Oct 24, 2012 3:21 pm

Lately it will be obvious. Try jumping. If you don't jump, you're not supposed to. If you can, you might need it, or won't interrupt any playflow at least.


But jumping may not be disabled, because some people frown upon disabling the option completely (so they can cheat without having to edit the mapinfo). Problem with this is people may assume that because jumping is enabled, you are allowed to jump. Same with crouching. Ideally the author should have specified that jumping is not allowed in the text file if they have not disabled it.


Edit: what Rex said. Should have read first. :roll:
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:32 pm

ReX wrote:It helps if the wad author, in addition to the standard text file, includes a separate file that has a name that stands out (something like gameplay.txt, or readthis.txt). Players will likely notice such a file in the zip package and open/read it.
:laff:

... Sorry, it's just that I never see that work very well. The best you can do is take a quasi-EULA stance, and not even respond to anyone who can't be arsed to read that thing that says "READ ME!" (May seem a bit rude but it's all I've got.)
Last edited by NeuralStunner on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby FDARI » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:07 am

Odd use of the word "likely". Sooner I'd say "Players will be players". Hmm... Make an episode menu of 4 episodes called "Not", "Designed", "For" and "Jumping"? Players will not appreciate that either, I suppose. Texture a sign for the first level with the words "Jumping? Not in this game." Basically, put it anywhere they are likely to go even if they don't bother to check what they have downloaded.

Plan B: Put it in capital letters over your complaints department.
- JUMPING MAY DISRUPT GAME EXPERIENCE

Plan C: Disable jumping and name your wad <gamename>.nojump.pk3. Receive complaint that calling it <gamename>.jump.pk3 did not solve the issue.

Or: Extend zdoom to display text from a specific lump in each wad that is being loaded for the first time. (No, I don't think so.)

Enclose some documentation. Put some documentation where they download. Highlight some answers to common complaints. Especially in the complaints department, should you have one. Answer hopeless complains if you can be bothered.

Disable jumping and handle complaints about inability to jump, or (I can bear this)
Permit jumping and handle complaints about broken flow, or (as a player I'm not keen on enforcing nojump manually)
Design the map so that jumping doesn't have to be disabled. (I favour this, even if you do disable jump)
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby ReX » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:00 am

At some point a wad's author has to assume some degree of responsibility on the part of the player. For example, if a wad is designed for ZDooM & the text file states so, and a player doesn't read the text file and fires up the wad with Chocolate-Doom, it's clearly a case of "RTFM, stoopid!" In the same way, if the wad's author makes reasonable efforts to make the player aware of whether or not jumping is required, that ought to be sufficient.

Now if the map is not intended to be played with jumping, it is the player's responsibility to make sure that jumping is either disabled, or the map is designed so that jumping will not mess up gameplay. The former is easier to implement than the latter, but it ought to be the author's prerogative about which method to use.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Gez » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:11 am

FDARI wrote:Odd use of the word "likely". Sooner I'd say "Players will be players". Hmm... Make an episode menu of 4 episodes called "Not", "Designed", "For" and "Jumping"? Players will not appreciate that either, I suppose. Texture a sign for the first level with the words "Jumping? Not in this game." Basically, put it anywhere they are likely to go even if they don't bother to check what they have downloaded.

Plan B: Put it in capital letters over your complaints department.
- JUMPING MAY DISRUPT GAME EXPERIENCE

Plan C: Disable jumping and name your wad <gamename>.nojump.pk3. Receive complaint that calling it <gamename>.jump.pk3 did not solve the issue.

Or: Extend zdoom to display text from a specific lump in each wad that is being loaded for the first time. (No, I don't think so.)

Enclose some documentation. Put some documentation where they download. Highlight some answers to common complaints. Especially in the complaints department, should you have one. Answer hopeless complains if you can be bothered.

Disable jumping and handle complaints about inability to jump, or (I can bear this)
Permit jumping and handle complaints about broken flow, or (as a player I'm not keen on enforcing nojump manually)
Design the map so that jumping doesn't have to be disabled. (I favour this, even if you do disable jump)


Don't be paranoid. Disabling jumping in MAPINFO is enough.

People will still be able to jump if they enable it specifically in the gameplay options menu; but having to do that step will tell them that they shouldn't jump. If they still jump afterwards; it's their problem; not yours.

Similarly, you shouldn't obsess about people cheating.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby NeuralStunner » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:22 am

Right. Thus my solution: Ignore any "bug report" arising from a failure to read a few release notes. Or at least give them the simplest possible response:

"Jumping breaks this map!"
"Then don't do that."
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby wildweasel » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:25 am

While I do my best to make sure my mod documentation is as comprehensive as possible (even going so far as to include an extremely elaborate in-game help menu in ww-terror), my response is much the same as Neural and Rex: if the player can't be arsed to read the instructions, then I can't be arsed to help them.
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Matt » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:02 am

Holy ballcakes this is the most ridiculous conversation I've seen all day.

If you don't want a player to go somewhere, block that area off and don't make assumptions.

Everything else is up for grabs.
Vaecrius, in his autoexec.cfg wrote:sv_allowcrouch true
sv_allowjump true
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Xaser » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:03 pm

I hope you're not trying to imply that if you use jumping to get somewhere you're never able to get to in, say, a vanilla map of mine, then it's my fault. That would be the ridiculous part of this conversation. :P
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby FDARI » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:22 pm

It's not actually a big issue is it? I mean; I did write a lot about it, but the serious half of it was only half serious. I have never actually set out to make something that doesn't "support" jumping -rather the opposite. (And I hardly ever release anything, so all my experiences are with reactions to other people's projects.)

Solid spikebisquits...
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Enjay » Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:32 pm

On a (only slightly) related point (raising it because it just happened to me) when I play a map that uses lots of ZDoom bells and whistles, it feels odd to not be able to jump.

I know that it is unfair on the author but somewhere deep down it seems to slightly prejudice me against the map. It's hard to explain but its almost a feeling of "what! you couldn't be bothered to make the map jump compatible when you did all this other ZDoom stuff". I know, as I said, that's unfair and the author may well have made a perfectly reasoned decision to make a map where jumping is not part of the gameplay but its a little illogical demon that sits at the back of my mind nagging me right through the map.

Weird. :?
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Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Postby Doctor-Dos » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:07 pm

Enjay wrote:On a (only slightly) related point (raising it because it just happened to me) when I play a map that uses lots of ZDoom bells and whistles, it feels odd to not be able to jump.

I know that it is unfair on the author but somewhere deep down it seems to slightly prejudice me against the map. It's hard to explain but its almost a feeling of "what! you couldn't be bothered to make the map jump compatible when you did all this other ZDoom stuff". I know, as I said, that's unfair and the author may well have made a perfectly reasoned decision to make a map where jumping is not part of the gameplay but its a little illogical demon that sits at the back of my mind nagging me right through the map.

Weird. :?


Agreed!

ZDoom maps should be made jump-compatible. Unless you have new sprites of a wheelchair bound space marine!
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