Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.

Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby moocow » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:15 am

I cant seem to find a flag to enable zdoom to allow archviles to make ghosts from crushed monsters.
moocow
Banned User
 
Joined: 18 Sep 2009

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:21 am

You can't.

This only exists as a compatibility setting for existing maps that depend on this bug, not for newly created content.
Arch-Vile ghosts are annoying.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby moocow » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:37 am

What is the compatability setting?
moocow
Banned User
 
Joined: 18 Sep 2009

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Kinsie » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:46 am

moocow wrote:What is the compatability setting?
EIther use the console command "Compatflags 33554432" or just turn on "Crushed Monsters Can Be Resurrected" in Compatibilty Options
User avatar
Kinsie
Dog Days
 
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Location: MAP33
Discord: Find Me...
Twitch ID: thekinsie

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby moocow » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:06 am

Thanks! Dont know how I missed it.
moocow
Banned User
 
Joined: 18 Sep 2009

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:24 am

That still won't produce ghosts.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Gez » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:31 am

There's two different things. One is to allow crushed monsters to be resurrected, and it can be set. The other is to make the crushed then resurrected monsters ghosts, and this one is not available because it's a stupid bug that people should stop trying to exploit. So you'll only see it on a few old maps, and you can't enable it anywhere else.
Gez
 
 
 
Joined: 06 Jul 2007

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Xaser » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:51 am

Wait, why not again? :?

So if I'm understanding this correctly, ZDoom does have a compatibility mode that allows for the infamous archie ghosts, but the user is not allowed to toggle it? That doesn't make sense at all. Granted, this would be a different issue altogether if the functionality did not exist -- it is, after all, an exploited engine bug. But you're saying the option is there, just not in the menu, in which case I see no reason whatsoever not to expose it for those players who want it.

For the record, though, I would personally leave the option turned off. But that's not to say that everyone else would, too.
User avatar
Xaser
anarchivist
 
 
 
Joined: 20 Jul 2003

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Gez » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:05 am

Xaser wrote:So if I'm understanding this correctly, ZDoom does have a compatibility mode that allows for the infamous archie ghosts, but the user is not allowed to toggle it?

Yup.

You can use the CCMD hiddencompatflags when playing a level. It'll give you to hex values, the first for the "standard" compat flags that are set for that map, and the second for the "restricted" compat flags.

Here's the list of such restricted flags:
Code: Select allExpand view
// Emulate old bugs for select maps. These are not exposed by a cvar
// or mapinfo because we do not want new maps to use these bugs.
enum
{
   BCOMPATF_SETSLOPEOVERFLOW   = 1 << 0,   // SetSlope things can overflow
   BCOMPATF_RESETPLAYERSPEED   = 1 << 1,   // Set player speed to 1.0 when changing maps
   BCOMPATF_SPECHITOVERFLOW    = 1 << 2,   // Emulate spechit overflow (e.g. Strain MAP07)
   BCOMPATF_VILEGHOSTS         = 1 << 3,   // Monsters' radius and height aren't restored properly when resurrected.
};


It's a decision not to encourage modder to persist in exploiting such things.

ZDoom's aim was never to "properly" maintain all the warts in Doom's code. For that, you have Chocolate Doom. For old maps that have some interest and require it to work, yeah, there's some code out there that handle them specifically. For any new map, though, you shouldn't use these bugs.
Gez
 
 
 
Joined: 06 Jul 2007

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Xaser » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:35 am

While I understand ZDoom's aim is not to emulate these bugs -- far from it, naturally -- saying that no maps should ever use it is a bit unfair considering "support" for it still exists. I could cite wallrunning as an obvious parallel example: a bug, yes, but some maps require the use of it. Unlike the other three listed (two of which are ZDoom-specific anyway), the Vile Ghosts bug is at least well-known and used enough to warrant some recognition. Plutonia 2's Map32 used it, and that was recent, and nothing's stopping today's mappers from creating a map that uses the exploit. All this option-hiding does, to me, is prevent said legitimate map from running on ZDoom for what I believe is a trivial reason.

If it's deterrence you're looking for, I can understand restricting it completely for ZDoom-format maps, since non-buggy methods of doing the same are absolutely possible using ZDoom features. But restricting it for everything else is simply crippling ZDoom's compatibility. Sure, I could use Chocolate Doom or another port to run such a map, but I'd rather run it in ZDoom if the option exists, you know. ;)
User avatar
Xaser
anarchivist
 
 
 
Joined: 20 Jul 2003

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Gez » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:44 am

Xaser wrote:Unlike the other three listed (two of which are ZDoom-specific anyway), the Vile Ghosts bug is at least well-known and used enough to warrant some recognition. Plutonia 2's Map32 used it, and that was recent, and nothing's stopping today's mappers from creating a map that uses the exploit.

Here's the list of supported maps.
Code: Select allExpand view
// Arch-Vile ghost monster effect is used by the following maps
145C4DFCF843F2B92C73036BA0E1D98A // Hell Revealed map26
5379C080299EB961792B50AD96821543 // Hell to Pay map14
7837B5334A277F107515D649BCEFB682 // Hell to Pay map22
2EEB1E12FA9F9545DE9D99990A4A78E5 // Icarus map24
65A53A09A09525AE42EA210BF879CD37 // Plutonia 2 map32
2499CF9A9351BE9BC4E9C66FC9F291A7 // Requiem map23
{
   corpsegibs
   vileghosts
}


See? Plutonia 2 is there. Now you can be happy and stop whining. :P
Gez
 
 
 
Joined: 06 Jul 2007

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Kate » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:56 am

Way to miss the point entirely, Gez.

The problem is not current maps, the problem is future maps. Frankly, this has already been adopted as standard DOOM behavior, even if it is a bug, and has been since the original source release. To pack away the functionality from the user even if they may wind up needing to set it is entirely nonsensical to the point that it completely contradicts the point of having settable compat flags in the first place.

The fact that it's in the compatibility flags menu in itself should be disincentive enough for ZDoom mappers to not consider using the behavior, but it's not going to stop anyone. It's not going to stop vanilla or boom/mbf mappers and it's certainly not going to stop those who are already used to the functionality being there from abusing the bug, and to intentionally hide this functionality will only result in a most likely constant stream of retarded bug reports about maps not working.

If you're willing to deal with that, that's fine by me, but you don't get a right to complain when I say “I Told You So”™.
User avatar
Kate
... in loving memory ...
 
Joined: 15 Jul 2003

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:18 pm

In my opinion: Every map using AV ghosts == fail by default. (Yes, that includes Plutonia2 MAP32. I found that map unplayable even without those abominations. I wonder how much worse it is now...)

As long as I have anything to say about it this will not be exposed more than it is right now. For what it's worth I wouldn't have put half of the maps on that compatibility list there. To be blunt, I already regret that this compatibility crap has been added at all. In retrospect it should have been dumped into the deepest abyss of hell!
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Gez » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:27 pm

When used intentionally, it's a stupid gimmick which has already been done to death. There's no point in using it again. You want ghost monsters? You can make much better ones with normal modding features such as THRUACTOR, STEALTH, GHOST, and other flags.

I'd support removing it entirely over making it a full-fledged modding option.

And an "endless stream of bugs about new maps not working"? Please. For this to happen, there should be an endless stream of new maps using this stupid and annoying gimmick. If that happens, then the best course of action would be to drop the Doom modding scene altogether because it's clearly suffering from terminal retardation.

The option to support that is relatively new (it's a post r1800 addition), before it did not even exist at all, and there was no constant streams of bug reports about it. I don't see why it would change now. But if it does, it's simply going to be reverted out since it wasn't a problem before, and never was an official feature.

Graf Zahl wrote:In my opinion: Every map using AV ghosts == fail by default. (Yes, that includes Plutonia2 MAP32. I found that map unplayable even without those abominations. I wonder how much worse it is now...)

It's the gimmickiest use of it ever. It makes a bunch of Wolfenstein nazis crawl out in the middle of a swarm of cyberdemons. Needless to say, you don't even notice they're around, as far as gameplay is concerned, because they're blasted by explosions before they can be a nuisance.
Gez
 
 
 
Joined: 06 Jul 2007

Re: Archvile + crusher + ghosts flag?

Postby Zippy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:25 pm

Xaser wrote:saying that no maps should ever use it is a bit unfair considering "support" for it still exists.
Not really...

I see two basic scenarios:

1) Author tries to make a map for ZDoom that makes use of ghost monsters. If they're trying to use the old vanilla method, then they are in error. DECORATE supports their needs to a much greater degree and that's what they should be using.

2) Author tries to make a non-ZDoom map that makes use of ghost monsters. This would be a problem if ZDoom were the only source port on Earth and its goal was to be compatible with everything, ever. That's not the case though. As it stands, ZDoom currently does not emulate vanilla Doom "correctly" in many degrees anyhow. There are plenty of other source ports that do, though. So, a map not made for ZDoom subsequently not working with ZDoom isn't really that terrible at all since there are things it will work for.

Frankly, there's nothing lost by this at all.
User avatar
Zippy
Your Golden Boy
 
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Location: New Jersey
Discord: Zurock#4834

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Deii and 2 guests