Page 2 of 3

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:24 am
by Siggi
SoulPriestess wrote:Flash has been abused by so many webmasters that any addons which block it rightfully do so. Flash is used to load popups, annoy the living fuck out of a visitor, and even in some cases hijack the browser or system. (The latter has been fixed, but it's happened before)

If a site that I visit has Flash, I generally assume that in most cases, I'm missing nothing by unblocking it.

I'll admit that I'd forgotten about popup adverts when I wrote that response, but at the same time I don't consider that as correct use.
Using Flash, Java Script, Active X or anything else to manipulate the browser in ways the user has no control over is, imo, improper use.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:25 am
by bagheadspidey
Yeah, flash vs. pdf is a tough one. On one hand, flash is powerful, unique, and could be really cool in theory... but in practise it's usually just lame =/ Of course, sometimes it's used properly; for instance google uses it to allow you to preview mp3 and other audio formats in gmail attachments, and I've seen some decent flash multi-file uploaders. This kind of flash stuff always seems snappier and more steamlined than the java applet equivalent.

On the other hand pdf is a nice printable document format, but it's really nothing more than a glorified postscript. If pdf had never come along, we'd all happily be using postscript in its place and nobody would probably miss it.

Either way, I find both technologies to be hundreds of times more acceptable than ColdFusion (not that anyone cares, but hey) =p

edit - activex on the web is always improper ;p


ah, anyway, as for the topic at hand, I really hope embeddable svg fonts catch on as a web standard, but until internet exploter starts losing some serious market share I don't see it happening. Oh well, there's always EOT! (heh, yeah right)

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:28 am
by Siggi
bagheadspidey wrote:On the other hand pdf is a nice printable document format, but it's really nothing more than a glorified postscript. If pdf had never come along, we'd all happily be using postscript in its place and nobody would probably miss it.

If only that were true. I know a lot of people who know what a PDF file is, but I know very few who've even heard of postscript.
The PDF format has clearly been marketed better. Had it not existed, we'd have people uploading whatever format their editer saves documents in.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:44 am
by bagheadspidey
I suppose. I guess my point was that pdf is more or less a replacement for another format (ps / eps), taking that format as a sort of starting point and building on that, while flash is something fairly original and different. Beyond that, I guess I didn't really have much of a point. <_<

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:50 am
by Rachael
I use XPS. Even though it's a Microsoft format, it's very lightweight and isn't maintained by some insane software company that likes to bloat their products beyond oblivion. (Okay, Microsoft is guilty for that, but not nearly as much so as Adobe, and in this case XPS viewer is not nearly as bloated as Adobe's PDF reader!)

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:54 am
by Siggi
I've never heard of XPS. Would I be able to open such a file?

Yes, Adobe's reader is sluggish, but there are various other lightweight viewers. It's more the PDF format I like.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:55 am
by Rachael
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/xps/default.mspx

It's automatically included with Windows Vista and any similar-generation Office products.

A lot of what Microsoft says in this link about XPS is biased, but the facts are still pretty solid.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:21 pm
by Chris
bagheadspidey wrote:Of course, sometimes it's used properly; for instance google uses it to allow you to preview mp3 and other audio formats in gmail attachments

You don't need flash to play mp3 or media formats in a web browser. In fact, that's one of the biggest abuses of flash I see (that and using it as a replacement for (sections of) web pages).

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:01 pm
by bagheadspidey
Chris wrote:
bagheadspidey wrote:Of course, sometimes it's used properly; for instance google uses it to allow you to preview mp3 and other audio formats in gmail attachments

You don't need flash to play mp3 or media formats in a web browser. In fact, that's one of the biggest abuses of flash I see (that and using it as a replacement for (sections of) web pages).


Sure, you can use a media player plugin, but then it's anyone's ballgame as to who's media player is actually going to be used: QuickTime? WMP? RealPlayer? VLC? gstreamer? Something else? With flash, everyone gets the same UI and codecs and the result is much more predictable. I'm fairly sure that's why google went this route, anyway. Why do you consider it to be an abuse of flash?

As far as using it for sections of (or entire) web pages, that irks the hell out of me too, so I have to agree with you there -- even though I'm not sure that's technically an "abuse," as afaik that's a large part of what flash was intended for in the first place.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:02 pm
by DoomRater
Flash is nice for learning to make small games or even movies... but there's a whole site dediacted to such usage of the Flash format.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:13 pm
by Gez
bagheadspidey wrote:As far as using it for sections of (or entire) web pages, that irks the hell out of me too, so I have to agree with you there -- even though I'm not sure that's technically an "abuse," as afaik that's a large part of what flash was intended for in the first place.

Then Flash was intended to be an abuse of the web.

When a page's textual content is hidden from the browser so as to be seen only by the flash plugin, it means that, for example, blind people who use speech synthesis software to read webpages can't use your site.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:43 pm
by leileilol
Gez wrote:When a page's textual content is hidden from the browser so as to be seen only by the flash plugin, it means that, for example, blind people who use speech synthesis software to read webpages can't use your site.

That 'rule' only really counts in the UK, and besides, if you're blind, you're probably not interested in playing old FPS games anyway (that cater to a not-vision-impaired person in mind anyhow)

Flash is designed for the web. No one wants to 'click around a web page' by downloading a PDF file and reading that.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:18 pm
by bagheadspidey
Gez wrote:
bagheadspidey wrote:As far as using it for sections of (or entire) web pages, that irks the hell out of me too, so I have to agree with you there -- even though I'm not sure that's technically an "abuse," as afaik that's a large part of what flash was intended for in the first place.

Then Flash was intended to be an abuse of the web.

When a page's textual content is hidden from the browser so as to be seen only by the flash plugin, it means that, for example, blind people who use speech synthesis software to read webpages can't use your site.


I never thought I'd be the one to sit here and defend flash, but it's supported (at least some) screen readers for several versions, and Adobe has tons of information on their site about creating section 508 compliant flash stuff. The latest versions of flash have been especially concerned with a11y, in fact. Flash has the potential to be just as accessible as a normal web page if used correctly. That said, I basically agree with everyone else in this thread that in practise, flash usually sucks...

Anyway, if you got rid of flash, something just as bad (silverlight) would probably just take its place anyway =/

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:27 pm
by Medricel
bagheadspidey wrote:Anyway, if you got rid of flash, something just as bad (silverlight) would probably just take its place anyway =/

Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, silverlight is just Microsoft's knockoff for Flash.

From my experience though, Flash is really only a problem when it needs to draw over a lot of area, especially with things like alpha and that blurring effect, or when it has to draw a lot of objects at once.

Re: HeXen FONT!!!!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:31 pm
by Enjay
Or when you are on a slow Internet connection and you have to wait for a flash site to load only to find what you had waited for was nothing more than a fancy menu that you just want to click past anyway.

Hell, even on a fast connection, flash is slow loading enough to be frustrating.

And then it usually comes hand-in-hand with some "clever" graphics or system that actually makes it harder to navigate the site you have visited. 9 times of of 10, if I arrive at a flash driven site, I leave it pretty quickly, often before even the menu has loaded.