The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby _mental_ » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:42 am

Nope, there are lots of issues with OpenGL on Mac: bad and/or broken drivers, old and limited version of OpenGL, and finally its deprecation in upcoming macOS.
I have no idea how Apple managed to break everything that much but in many cases GZDoom runs faster on integrated Intel graphics.

Even big companies could not convince Apple to do something with this OpenGL fiasco.
For example, Valve sponsored Vulkan implementation on top of Metal to leverage a total disaster with gaming graphics APIs in macOS.
Hobby projects cannot afford making own Metal renderer. They are simply not Blizzard nor Epic nor Unity.
_mental_
 
 
 
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Lexus Alyus » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:15 am

About 5 or so years I ago I thought that OS X was just as good as Windows for games, now it's back to Windows being better. It's like Apple were getting really good but now they're degrading (in some cases their starting to pick up some of Microsofts bad practices that steered me away from Windows in the fist place!). I'm pretty annoyed that they obsoleted my 2008 Mac Pro 8.1, yet I've successfully managed to install both Sierra and High Sierra (obviously using a patch tool). In fact the only limitation my mac has is the built in wifi card, which I don't use anyway, and if i wanted to I could install a PCI one that is compatible. I can still upgrade the memory and my video, so technically it should fully support any new OS apple release, but Apple just decided not to support my mac. I understand that the intention is for you to buy a new computer, but I got myself deeply in debt just to be able to afford my current system, which right now is still running really well. In Windows it even runs Doom 2016 at pretty decent graphic settings, so my hardware is more than capable.

What's worse is I have to use Sierra as High Sierra glitches really badly on my video card (Nvidia GTX 750ti). From my research this is actually a new thing from the latest version of High Sierra, as previous versions ran fine from what I've read. It's a really sad state of affairs, Apple have become really disappointing for me...

However I'm also sore with Blizzard as they've decided to tow the Apple line and stop supporting my processor. Warcraft will not run in OS X because of my processor, yet run's perfectly fine in Windows on the very same hardware. This is just ridiculous. But oh well, things are fine now, I just worry in a couple of years when my system is rendered completely unusable by stupid software decisions...

IMO computers should be built to last. Mine was and the hardware is sound, but this is contradicted by just basic decisions by the software manufacturers. I hate this throw away society we live in... I expected a lot more from Apple, but they're quickly becoming the same as everyone else...

I'll stop moaning now :D

:twisted:
User avatar
Lexus Alyus
One day, I may actually release something...
 
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Location: Nottingham, UK

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:26 am

Lexus Alyus wrote:stuff about Apple


All very true. And if you look at more recent Macs you'll find out that they have become ever less repairable with ever more parts being soldered in or using proprietary connectors so that off-the-shelf hardware won't fit. I am convinced that short term this will boost Apple's profits, but long term the power users will leave the platform if this trend continues.

Lexus Alyus wrote:However I'm also sore with Blizzard as they've decided to tow the Apple line and stop supporting my processor. Warcraft will not run in OS X because of my processor, yet run's perfectly fine in Windows on the very same hardware. This is just ridiculous. But oh well, things are fine now, I just worry in a couple of years when my system is rendered completely unusable by stupid software decisions...


Wanna bet that the real culprit is Apple again? It requires quite deliberate fuckery to not support older CPUs unless some artificially introduced OS limitation makes this necessary. And this is definitely along what I expect from Apple. That said, I also expect far more game devs to drop Apple if they continue to release crappy Macs.


Lexus Alyus wrote:IMO computers should be built to last. Mine was and the hardware is sound, but this is contradicted by just basic decisions by the software manufacturers. I hate this throw away society we live in... I expected a lot more from Apple, but they're quickly becoming the same as everyone else...


Welcome to real life! Obviously it's not as easy as you want it to be. Supporting legacy hardware is not free. If some more modern features become taken for granted, that old stuff will quickly become unsupported.
Microsoft, at least, never actively deprecated old hardware or APIs like Apple, that's why it is far less likely for support to be dropped here by third party software. GZDoom can easily be maintained for OpenGL 3.3 for many years to come (discounting those features that require newer hardware capabilities), but in the end the decision is not just made by the ability to do so, but by the value of doing it. The users of this hardware will disappear far more quickly than the ability to support this hardware so removal will not depend on the inability to provide continued support but on the amount of users for a given support level.
This was also the main reason why we recently removed the entire D3D backend for the software renderer and consolidated everything under the existing hardware renderer. It's not worth supporting this stuff for roughly 0.3% of all existing users.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Cacodemon345 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:50 am

I will just wait for Apple's MacOS products to go down in the consumer market. If they decide to continue selling underpowered overpriced computers even after they transition to ARM, I don't think they will last. If they sell out ARM Macs that has about the power of a typical high-end Android devices, people are going to use something else. I wouldn't go as far as trying to emulate Doom in a ARM Mac because it's performance will be lower than what I can find on a Windows computer. If they drop OpenGL alongside x86, they will go down pretty fast.
Cacodemon345
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Discord: Cacodemon345#9151

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Rachael » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:01 am

I think in the end, the only people that will chase away are the power users.

Macs never were about heavy CPU horsepower, it's always been in the graphics and media.

Plus, Doom already exists quite prominently on ARM thanks to the Raspberry Pi. If the Pi has proven anything, it's proven the processor architecture is quite viable, despite its lack of power compared to traditional CISC processors such as Intel.
User avatar
Rachael
QZDoom + Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:25 am

Rachael wrote:I think in the end, the only people that will chase away are the power users.


... but that will be the core group of traditional Apple users, like graphics artists. ARM may be viable for certain jobs but even Doom on the Raspberry Pi clearly shows that the platform may be "adequate" for simple tasks, but beware of increasing complexity. And many "working" tasks require horsepower, even something as mundane as running an iOS compiler. It already takes far too long to compile larger projects with XCode - increase that time due to weaker CPUs and there will be an uproar among developers because instead of wasting two hours per day on compile times they now will have to waste three hours.

But whatever, I think Apple has long lost touch with reality, they are walling themselves in ever stronger with each new hardware they produce. The end result will be that Macs can either be used to compile iOS software or to run mundane office tasks. It's quite ironic how Apple voluntarily gives up market share for stronger platform lock-in. Over the last 3-5 years they haven't done ANYTHING to broaden their appeal outside the niches they favor themselves as their intended targets.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Rachael » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 am

I agree there, but unfortunately Apple is never going to lose its core users. The Macs we have today are the most powerful they will ever be for the next 5-10 years, possibly longer, until either they decide to move to a CISC processor type once more, or the ARM processors become so overclocked that the performance difference finally becomes negligible. It's going to be interesting to see where this goes, none the less.

But I will say this - before the transition to NeXTSTEP and Intel processors, Apple was in the dump and nearly bankrupt. Let's see if Tim Cook learns his lesson before that happens again.

My opinion (please don't take this as fact, it's speculation) - I think Apple's primary motivation to move to ARM processors is to decrease Mac OS piracy. That's like washing out the baby with the bath water - a good way to ensure no one will use something is make it as unappealing as possible! Smart forward thinking there, Tim Cook!
User avatar
Rachael
QZDoom + Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:22 am

Rachael wrote:I agree there, but unfortunately Apple is never going to lose its core users. The Macs we have today are the most powerful they will ever be for the next 5-10 years, possibly longer, until either they decide to move to a CISC processor type once more, or the ARM processors become so overclocked that the performance difference finally becomes negligible. It's going to be interesting to see where this goes, none the less.

But I will say this - before the transition to NeXTSTEP and Intel processors, Apple was in the dump and nearly bankrupt. Let's see if Tim Cook learns his lesson before that happens again.


Until now it's all rumors and most from sources I'd call fishy at best. Reading Apple magazines makes it clear that their journalists have no clue what really goes on and they, just like Tim Cook, see Apple as a distinct product category that does not obey common laws of economy.
But I also see another side. Most of the times when there's user comments to Apple related articles it was from people that are 100% convinced about Apple's superiority and/or really get defensive about their great Apple products, but recently I have noticed a shift to sarcastic remarks and announcements to "switch", all in all strongly hinting at some widespread frustration among power users.
Connecting the dots I'd say there's some disaster in the making with nobody realizing that they are running full steam ahead into a concrete wall.
Apple's biggest problem is that everybody involved - management, journalists and entrenched users are denying that there is a problem in need of getting addressed.

Rachael wrote:My opinion (please don't take this as fact, it's speculation) - I think Apple's primary motivation to move to ARM processors is to decrease Mac OS piracy. That's like washing out the baby with the bath water - a good way to ensure no one will use something is make it as unappealing as possible! Smart forward thinking there, Tim Cook!



Nah. Yes, sure, piracy exists. But at what percentage? I don't know anybody running a Hackintosh because in general the Apple tax is not that high to make this worthwile.
Seriously, if they want to combat piracy, the best way to do this is to offer a decent portfolio of supported systems, but that's clearly not on Apple's agenda.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Cacodemon345 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:22 am

An overclocked ARM processor won't see much use in laptops. Chances are, it may see it's use on desktops, but I doubt it will happen in Apple's case judging by their past history of selling underpowered Macs. The Macs are mostly also used from work, but from what I am hearing, that's the place where OpenGL is needed more. I will just wait until the day when people stop using Macs at work. Rewriting shit for Metal isn't useful.
Cacodemon345
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Discord: Cacodemon345#9151

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:48 am

Cacodemon345 wrote:but from what I am hearing, that's the place where OpenGL is needed more.


Yes, that's true. OpenGL is used in a lot of long-living graphics software. And a lot of this is so complex that it's never going to be rewritten for another API.
There's a reason why Microsoft even in its worst years under Ballmer never messed around with its OpenGL support. They know very well that it is needed.


Cacodemon345 wrote: I will just wait until the day when people stop using Macs at work. Rewriting shit for Metal isn't useful.


The really sad thing is that true Apple users would still choose the worst Mac over any Windows or Linux system. They wouldn't even CONSIDER those usable computers. I know a few of that kind myself. Some quote I once heard from a former colleague: "Yeah it sucks that Apple removed the USB port. But what can I do? I'd have to buy some inferior shit otherwise."

Nevertheless, I really get the feeling from Apple that they do not care about Macs. The real deciding factor for dropping OpenGL will probably be the available iOS apps that still use OpenGL. Once that drops to "acceptable" numbers they'll toss it out.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Cacodemon345 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:25 am

I don't think Apple is going to wait. I mean, I already heard reports from Apple deprecating OpenGL on iOS too. What they simply want is that people must use Metal. The OpenGL support will be left to rot in iOS, or in other words, no more work would be done on it. This is going to backfire on Apple.
Cacodemon345
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Discord: Cacodemon345#9151

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:39 am

Deprecating is not removing. And yes, they already deprecated it on iOS too.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:41 am

I really wish Steve Jobs were still around. He would not let ANY of this stand - especially after all the time and effort to make Macintosh actually a part of the PC ecosystem at large, what with Tim Cook undermining it and trying to undo all of that effort.
User avatar
Rachael
QZDoom + Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Cacodemon345 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:01 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Deprecating is not removing.
I didn't say that OpenGL was removed.

Anyways, I am not sure if the removal of OpenGL will be good for Apple or not. Taking a look at it from another angle, it might just help Apple to take over Android as the best apps and games come to iOS first.
Cacodemon345
 
Joined: 22 Dec 2017
Discord: Cacodemon345#9151

Re: The official "ZDoom on Mac OS X" thread.

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:12 pm

I doubt that very much. Most games are built on third party engines, not directly on the 3D APIs. In addition those low level APIs like Metal, Vulkan or DX12 are notoriously hard to program and wll definitely overwhelm many developers.

And this iOS first is purely an American thing. These people only see the numbers from their home market and essentially leave the rest of the world to foreign producers. It will just be too bad if eventually those foreign producers overtake them and define what needs to be done to be successful.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Previous

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest