How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Redneckerz » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:26 am

markanini wrote:That's what legal teams want you to think. Persuasion works differently. You make a big ask, the legal team gets invovled, you get a no. The legal team is happy, the execs are happy. You come back make a smaller big ask, the legal team gets involved again and so on until the lawyers and execs are so happy with themselves they decide to agree the nth time. This is the basic model of how B2B negotiations go every day. Few in the FOSS community are aware of this.

You know, its one thing to have a different opinion - And another is to be smug about it (But feel free to prove me wrong). Having read the whole ordeal and Gearbox stance over the years on how they see source code and how they deal with these things, its 100% certain they aren't going to budge using the method you describe. I personally also find it a bit contrarian to suggest such a hard approach, given Frederik Schreiber's involvement let alone some of the Duke4 devs that have had to work with Gearbox in the past (Like The Hail To The King Collection).

They have been at the negoiation tables. They had these discussions and then some. If you want to play the hard ball, would you also be willing to face the legal consequences if you decide to play the selfish angle? We aren't talking just words here - This can and will involve legal court cases.

markanini wrote:Are you saying the community wouldn't ultimately wish for a full source code release?

I am fairly sure i am not saying that. I am fairly sure however that this is a loaded question.

Lets be clear here - Obviously a full source code release for the World Tour part of code would be great. But the reason this is never ushered isn't because nobody dared to play hardball with Gearbox - Its because given history, its completely futile to do so. Gearbox have the right (as a company) to be in the position they are in - Unfortunately that means that the community is therefore ignored. That's their decision, but it also means that the will to attempt to work with GBX is close to zero.

markanini wrote:This is exactly my point. Business incentive has its own special way of working, but its follow basic models. Rather than accept their setup you can work out how to navigate it with your own goals in mind.

Gearbox wants money. And Gearbox has Randy Pitchford. That's all you need to know. There is no navigation needed. Trust me, if that was a possibility, then Frederik Schreiber would have been succesfull in getting DNF 2001 out in the open. And TerminX would be saved a lot of trouble, too.

Feel free to be the David against the Gearbox Goliath, except this tale will not have the ending like its more famous original story has.

Phredreeke wrote:Hendricks said on Discord that WT support will be added directly to EDuke32 when it's ready.
Nuke.YKT is working on reverse engineering the hardcoded stuff.

This is an interesting development. Id love to hear more on how the True3D rendering works beyond the hardcoded works.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:37 am

Wow, now this is an interesting development.

But is it going to be more than the game logic side of things? Is that also going to include the video part?
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Phredreeke » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:24 am

The WT dynamic lights are compatible with Polymer.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Kinsie » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:11 am

Redneckerz wrote:
markanini wrote:This is an interesting development. Id love to hear more on how the True3D rendering works beyond the hardcoded works.
It's a rewritten imitation/clone of EDuke32's Polymer, right down to how light effectors etc. work. Not much mystery or magic to it, sadly.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:27 am

Well, at least it performs better than the original as far as I can tell.

Too bad the game is otherwise unplayable...
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Manuel-K » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:49 am

Kinsie wrote:It's a rewritten imitation/clone of EDuke32's Polymer, right down to how light effectors etc. work. Not much mystery or magic to it, sadly.


On the other hand it's compatible to Polymer. That would be a huge advantage if Polymer wasn't so broken, but even considering the state of that renderer, it's less stuff to reverse engineer to support the new episode.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby markanini » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:07 pm

Redneckerz wrote:You know, its one thing to have a different opinion - And another is to be smug about it (But feel free to prove me wrong). Having read the whole ordeal and Gearbox stance over the years on how they see source code and how they deal with these things, its 100% certain they aren't going to budge using the method you describe. I personally also find it a bit contrarian to suggest such a hard approach, given Frederik Schreiber's involvement let alone some of the Duke4 devs that have had to work with Gearbox in the past (Like The Hail To The King Collection).

I'm extremely interested in reading any transcripts or quotes from these negotiations if available.

Redneckerz wrote:They have been at the negoiation tables. They had these discussions and then some. If you want to play the hard ball, would you also be willing to face the legal consequences if you decide to play the selfish angle? We aren't talking just words here - This can and will involve legal court cases.

I'd strongly advise against negotiating as a representative of any particular project. Ideally use someone without involvement to carry out negotiations.

Redneckerz wrote:Gearbox wants money. And Gearbox has Randy Pitchford. That's all you need to know. There is no navigation needed. Trust me, if that was a possibility, then Frederik Schreiber would have been succesfull in getting DNF 2001 out in the open. And TerminX would be saved a lot of trouble, too.

I believe we are in violent agreement here, to think otherwise it would kill any chance of fruitful outcomes.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:19 pm

Good luck. But you have to understand that the pessimism comes from past experience. Do you really think you can make some people reconsider who are on record for being totally indifferent about this thing?
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Rachael » Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:56 pm

I'm going to make myself very clear then: I am very much not interested in whatever Randy Pitchford or Gearbox has to offer. I do not want to negotiate. I don't want to owe them anything, be beholden to them for anything - if DN:WT is reverse engineered, then that effort allows the community to take at least minimal ownership of that work.

And the reason for this is simple: Randy Pitchford has shown multiple times of having a certain kind of narcissism where he blames and shames the community for their reaction to his work. Whether it be the extremely poor performance of DN:WT or DNF, how he fucked over Duke Nukem for mobiles (which personally, I don't give a flying shit about, my stake in it is that I just don't like the way he treated terminx over that) or, even outside of the Duke franchise, such as when BL3 went Epic Exclusive and the backlash he got for that - and how poorly he handled that in turn as well. Let's not forget the time he went on Twitter with absolutely no filter - and needless to say, has shown himself to be an extremely shameless and disgusting person. Or the lawsuit where he sexually harassed one of his voice actors. I could probably add to this list all day if I kept thinking about it...

He is extremely disrespectful to say the least, and I am in a mind that I do not want favors from someone like him. He obviously hates literally everyone, and I don't know why any sort of negotiation is even a consideration for you, and the last thing you want is to put yourself in a position where it is harder to hold him accountable for his misdeeds - which is exactly what him providing you something of value (such as releasing the source code) would do.

At least my conscience is clear though - now that I've made that clear and on record, even if he does such a thing it'll be a lot easier to STILL hold his feet to the fire just as I've always done. And call him silly, childish names. (Come on, his last name is just too easy...)
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:06 pm

Randy Bi... -- okay, not doing this :mrgreen: .

Don't forget about not giving a voice actor payment for their job too, forgetting his stick somewhere and people found porn on it, and the icing, the Aliens: Colossal Bullshit fiasco. I was really looking forward to that game after we got hyped at E3 2011 and E3 2012, only for the final product to be a disaster and most of the said content to be either significantly altered, or completely removed... Thanks Randy.

Oh, right, he never really assumes any mistake he makes. And was proven to lie before. And... -- okay, the list can REALLY go on. Think we can all agree that Randy is all-around not a pleasant person and leave it at that.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Rachael » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:10 pm

lowskill. wrote:Randy Bi... -- okay, not doing this :mrgreen: .

():)

lowskill. wrote:Think we can all agree that Randy is all-around not a pleasant person and leave it at that.

Then we can at least agree we don't want to talk or negotiate with the guy, too? That would be my goal.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:14 pm

Certainly ;) .
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Redneckerz » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:15 pm

markanini wrote:I'm extremely interested in reading any transcripts or quotes from these negotiations if available.

Take a look at the Duke4 forums, where your crusade would bring more knights to your round table either way. I can't be bothered to look this up either way.

markanini wrote:I'd strongly advise against negotiating as a representative of any particular project. Ideally use someone without involvement to carry out negotiations.

You are dancing around the question. If you want to play this out to the end, then do so yourself. Don't cower away behind smarttalk to make it appear as if you have a legitimate point to make here - You don't.

You seem to think that your hardliner approach is a serious possibility - As has been pointed out several times now, that simply isn't the case.

Kinsie wrote:
Redneckerz wrote:
markanini wrote:This is an interesting development. Id love to hear more on how the True3D rendering works beyond the hardcoded works.
It's a rewritten imitation/clone of EDuke32's Polymer, right down to how light effectors etc. work. Not much mystery or magic to it, sadly.

Well, that's unfortunate. But atleast it seems to run better than Polymer does.

Rachael wrote:Randy Pitchford has shown multiple times of having a certain kind of narcissism where he blames and shames the community for their reaction to his work. Whether it be the extremely poor performance of DN:WT or DNF, how he fucked over Duke Nukem for mobiles (which personally, I don't give a flying shit about, my stake in it is that I just don't like the way he treated terminx over that) or, even outside of the Duke franchise, such as when BL3 went Epic Exclusive and the backlash he got for that - and how poorly he handled that in turn as well. Let's not forget the time he went on Twitter with absolutely no filter - and needless to say, has shown himself to be an extremely shameless and disgusting person. Or the lawsuit where he sexually harassed one of his voice actors. I could probably add to this list all day if I kept thinking about it...

I was not going to start in on this, but yes... there are more reasons one can think of why even considering waging a debate with Pitchford will result in nothing, and you have listed quite a few of them.

Pitchford has slowly made a living for himself as an ambassador of clown world principles and being the face of being a geniunely unkind person to hang around with. I am usually not this strong worded around other folks, but Pitchford is geniunely a disgrace for the industry. And that said industry has also included David Prassel (Orion Beatdown) or Derek Smart.

Randy is a relic in an gaming age where other authors get chastized for far less. I guess that also means he is a infamous public figure, but honestly, it would be better for literally everyone if Pitchford was replaced by someone who atleast gives a passing credulence to the community that surrounds him.
Last edited by Redneckerz on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Phredreeke » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:30 pm

markanini wrote:I'd strongly advise against negotiating as a representative of any particular project. Ideally use someone without involvement to carry out negotiations.


So we're gonna hire someone to negotiate a source code release with Gearbox? Who will pay this person?
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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

Postby Rachael » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:36 pm

Phredreeke wrote:Who will pay this person?

As sure as the blue sky that it will not be me, even if I could.
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