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Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:58 am
by sinisterseed
markanini wrote:Here's a crazy idea. What if the community reached out to Gearbox and negotiated a release of resources needed for episode five support in source ports. It would drive sales to Gearbox and the community would be happy. Win-win. Of course this would have to be taken up with someone higher up, middlemen and low level workers wouldn't normally have a say. It's not something easy, we would need to know exactly what to ask for in a technical sense whilst also being prepared to counter any and every concern regarding risk aversion from a market perspective. Some might object or dismiss entirely, but has anyone stepped up to the plate to give it a try? What do we have to to lose?

Not going to happen. Iirc some people asked GB to do this a while ago, and they had no interest in releasing it. Whether the reasons behind the decision were more than "we don't care" or not, I dunno, and it's irrelevant anyway.

So, like it or not, WT is here to stay, closed-source, likely to force users into buying their product as it's the only one capable of running the new content correctly.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:10 am
by markanini
lowskill. wrote:Iirc some people asked GB to do this a while ago, and they had no interest in releasing it.

I would like to know who these people are and how they framed the interaction exactly. If it's who I think it is they probably took a inefficient approach from the get go. On account of Gearbox being a company with 400-ish employees chances are pretty high some one will be willing to listen at least and pass a request further up.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:12 am
by Graf Zahl
It doesn't matter. This will go directly to the legal department and those people simply don't give a shit and do what's the lowest risk option for the company, which is doing nothing.
Why do you think has modern gaming become such a shitty cesspool? It's no longer idealists running the show but profit obsessed businesspeople.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:23 am
by markanini
Graf Zahl wrote:It doesn't matter. This will go directly to the legal department and those people simply don't give a shit and do what's the lowest risk option for the company, which is doing nothing.
Why do you think has modern gaming become such a shitty cesspool? It's no longer idealists running the show but profit obsessed businesspeople.

What if we play their game. So we're just be asking for something small in the scope of non-commercial usage. No one cares, right?
So let's make a ridiculously huge ask, a full source code release. Obviously that will get a hard no, from there we will have caught the attention of some higher ups and as negotiations reach a close we wont leave empty handed. This can't go through Karen at the front desk, that's how the legal team gets involved usually.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:31 am
by Graf Zahl
You clearly do not know how lawyers think. If saying "no" is the path of least resistance to them, they say "no".
Doing a public source release is a huge affair to them - they first need to clear that they do not accidentally release anything confidential (e.g. violating some NDA agreement or license for external code or whatever else.) This needs some legal clerk to go over the entire thing and clear each bit and piece of it. I can outright tell you: Unless you have enthusiasts who care about the community and don't mind these expenses, it won't EVER happen.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:53 am
by sinisterseed
markanini wrote:
lowskill. wrote:Iirc some people asked GB to do this a while ago, and they had no interest in releasing it.

I would like to know who these people are and how they framed the interaction exactly. If it's who I think it is they probably took a inefficient approach from the get go. On account of Gearbox being a company with 400-ish employees chances are pretty high some one will be willing to listen at least and pass a request further up.

No idea really, this was solely based on hearsay.

I do know that some folks have asked for some bits of code to solve some issues or better handle some things, in NBlood if memory doesn't fail me (I think I saw this in some comments on its git in a PR or an Issue), but seemingly nothing came out of it.

Anyway, the point is, if they cared about open-sourcing WT they would've done so by now.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:05 am
by Redneckerz
markanini wrote:
Rachael wrote:
markanini wrote:If other solutions are available that's great. It's amazing that the efforts of reverse engineering surpassed the need for source code for running Build games in OS environments.

I think it's more that in general, across this community, you'll likely find the sentiment towards the idea of actually cooperating with Gearbox even with something as small as this to be a slight, um ... small bit unsweet, to say the very least. And that's all I want to say about that.

I understand that very well, believe me. I mean there's always a people that wish to hold grudges indefinitely. At the same time, if by chance things took a turn toward agreeable terms and giving back to the community, who would say no in their right mind?

Emphasis mine. Assuming Gearbox (and thus Randy Pitchford) is going to be any lenient on opensourcing WT or atleast make its True3D render code public is preaching to a choir that never existed.

You have to understand, the reason why Gearbox is near-universally disliked is because there is very little leeway they allow themselves with the community. This is most apparent with the unfinished Duke Nukem Forever 2001 build. You can read the Duke4 thread and see how the dices are thrown.

In other words: There has to be an incentive for Gearbox to go forward with what you would want to see.

In the case of DNF's 2001 build, that incentive is (mostly) money related. In WT's case, there is simply no incentive for them to go ahead with it: WT is a product for sale, why would you want the code? Gearbox's modus operandi does not think about such concerns. That is ofcourse their perjorative and one they can perfectly align themselves with (as they have done so). Towards the community however, its a less than stellar position to have, and its (partially) why Gearbox in general in regards to Duke is not in the greatest standing.

markanini wrote:What if we play their game. So we're just be asking for something small in the scope of non-commercial usage. No one cares, right?
So let's make a ridiculously huge ask, a full source code release. Obviously that will get a hard no, from there we will have caught the attention of some higher ups and as negotiations reach a close we wont leave empty handed. This can't go through Karen at the front desk, that's how the legal team gets involved usually.

That is obviously not going to work, for more ways than one. Since you already have admitted on a public forum that you would consider attempting something like this, how do you think the legal team is going to look at it? They can do some good assumptions based on that post alone, if they even care as much as looking at it.

That's not how legal matters work - Far from it.

Nash wrote:WT has extra render features that Raze doesn't have yet - coloured dynamic lights, (and if I'm not mistaken) true colour textures?, SSAO, normal maps.

I believe these are courtesy of their touted True3D mode which includes several advanced rendering features. In PR its listed as a true 3D engine, but who knows.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:49 am
by Cacodemon345
Coloured dynlights were a thing in the Polymer renderer. Once the Raze engine's code is cleaned we can wish for those features to get its way into the source port.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:23 am
by markanini
Graf Zahl wrote:You clearly do not know how lawyers think. If saying "no" is the path of least resistance to them, they say "no".
Doing a public source release is a huge affair to them - they first need to clear that they do not accidentally release anything confidential (e.g. violating some NDA agreement or license for external code or whatever else.) This needs some legal clerk to go over the entire thing and clear each bit and piece of it. I can outright tell you: Unless you have enthusiasts who care about the community and don't mind these expenses, it won't EVER happen.

That's what legal teams want you to think. Persuasion works differently. You make a big ask, the legal team gets invovled, you get a no. The legal team is happy, the execs are happy. You come back make a smaller big ask, the legal team gets involved again and so on until the lawyers and execs are so happy with themselves they decide to agree the nth time. This is the basic model of how B2B negotiations go every day. Few in the FOSS community are aware of this.
If you had the choice, would you keep keep your idealism, grievance and anti-commercial bias and get nothing? Or would you rather be a bit selfish and win?

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:31 am
by markanini
Redneckerz wrote:That is obviously not going to work, for more ways than one. Since you already have admitted on a public forum that you would consider attempting something like this, how do you think the legal team is going to look at it? They can do some good assumptions based on that post alone, if they even care as much as looking at it.

That's not how legal matters work - Far from it.

Are you saying the community wouldn't ultimately wish for a full source code release?


Redneckerz wrote:In other words: There has to be an incentive for Gearbox to go forward with what you would want to see.

This is exactly my point. Business incentive has its own special way of working, but its follow basic models. Rather than accept their setup you can work out how to navigate it with your own goals in mind.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:48 am
by sinisterseed
markanini wrote:
Redneckerz wrote:That is obviously not going to work, for more ways than one. Since you already have admitted on a public forum that you would consider attempting something like this, how do you think the legal team is going to look at it? They can do some good assumptions based on that post alone, if they even care as much as looking at it.

That's not how legal matters work - Far from it.

Are you saying the community wouldn't ultimately wish for a full source code release?

The community would be interested, but GB has repeatedly portrayed themselves as anti-community - see the DNF2001 builds, bringing back Zero Hour (I recall 3DR looking for ways to bring it back, but now that they're no longer involved whatever chance there was, is long gone), and Randy also bashed the community "for not supporting WT enough", whatever that nonsense is supposed to mean.

They're fine just selling crap. After all WT only ever received one patch, which never arrived on consoles, and WT is overall buggier than EDuke32, Megaton, and Raze. That's quite the performance if I dare say. And anyway, wanting the source is simply wishful thinking at this stage, if they actually gave a damn about open-sourcing, it would've been opened shortly after launch. It was not, so there's no reason to expect it to ever be years down the road.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:50 am
by Rachael
Markanini: We're not interested in asking them. If you want to do it go ahead, but I know I am not the only one in saying this: We have no interest in cooperating with them. Note that I did not mention anything about what they want. So, do I really have to spell it out for you?

If you do ask them, it's all on you, bub. I don't even know if I am interested in taking whatever they give if they accept.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:53 am
by Dynamo
I think the current discussion has nothing to do with the original scope of the thread, which is the fact that WT doesn't work correctly in Raze. This discussion about the source code is I think useless: the things from it either already still exist, or will eventually be implemented in eduke32/raze without the need for it, with a likely much better implementation to boot. The only problem with world tour is some of the hardcoded shit they did, particularly the new firefly enemy and the new flamethrower, which would be much better off being rewritten from scratch in CON rather than either being reverse-engineered or even adapted from the original code. I don't personally advocate asking GB for anything, we do our thing and they do theirs, I think it's much better to let sleeping dogs lie in this case.

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:55 am
by Rachael
Dynamo wrote:I don't personally advocate asking GB for anything, we do our thing and they do theirs, I think it's much better to let sleeping dogs lie in this case.

^ This. ^

Re: How to play Duke Nuken 3D: World Tour in Raze

PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:06 am
by Phredreeke
Hendricks said on Discord that WT support will be added directly to EDuke32 when it's ready.
Nuke.YKT is working on reverse engineering the hardcoded stuff.