Download links?

Download links?

Postby nels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:39 am

Does anybody has the most recent link for downloading raze on MAC?
I'd love to know
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Re: Download links?

Postby Rachael » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:56 am

Nobody has been making Mac packages yet, that I know of.
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Re: Download links?

Postby nels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:59 am

Weird, because I have the 0.4.0 package on mac, but I've seen people talk about stuff in the 0.4.4 version.
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Re: Download links?

Postby Rachael » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:02 am

Huh, that's interesting. I don't know who's doing that, I'm guessing it was _mental_.

Mac packages take extra time because they're done by two people - first person compiles the tag, the next one signs it, then it goes back to the first one to upload.
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Re: Download links?

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:26 am

... and if all goes according to Apple's plan,in the future it may also require a round trip to Apple before they allow installation.
Or maybe once we get there it goes right to the dumpster. :twisted:
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Re: Download links?

Postby nels » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:27 am

Yes, the guy who did the mac package was _mental_ indeed.
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Re: Download links?

Postby Blzut3 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:31 am

Graf Zahl wrote:in the future it may also require a round trip to Apple before they allow installation.

The future is now!
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Re: Download links?

Postby sinisterseed » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:55 am

Old man!

Ya forgot this part :p.
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Re: Download links?

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:52 am

Blzut3 wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:in the future it may also require a round trip to Apple before they allow installation.

The future is now!



So what does that mean for us?
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Re: Download links?

Postby Phredreeke » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:28 am

This comes from someone who is not a Mac user so please correct me if I got anything wrong.

Mac's OpenGL stack has been considered subpar even before it was deprecated.
The only other API available is Metal.
A wrapper exist to use Vulkan on Metal called MoltenVK
MoltenVK is licensed under Apache license
The Apache license is incompatible with GPLv2 (used by EDuke32 family of ports) without the upgrade clause
Hence a future Vulkan renderer can't be wrapped through MoltenVK for use on Macs :?

So, even notarization aside, the future on Mac isn't looking bright
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Re: Download links?

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:11 am

I still wonder who had that fantastic idea to downgrade the lincense for EDuke32. JFDuke and EDuke 2.0 are both GPL2+ , so this was a completely dumb action, either done by someone who had no idea what he was doing or had an agenda. I suspect the former. This was done at a time when the GPLv3 wasn't released yet so this person probably never thought about this becoming a problem years later.

Thanks to this license I also cannot add more MIDI synths. Granted, the fact that the entire package is not GPL thanks to Build blocks most of them but if the source was GPL 2+ I could at least add WildMidi to the package - but being LGPLv3 this isn't doable - of course the validity of the GPL for the entire package is very questionable as long as there is the Build linking exception.

But I have to wonder about the future of Macs in general. Apple is pissing off independent developers left and right and some have already left the platform. What happens if this reaches critical mass and important software packages are no longer being updated?
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Re: Download links?

Postby Rachael » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:28 am

Graf Zahl wrote:of course the validity of the GPL for the entire package is very questionable as long as there is the Build linking exception.

In my view: It's not valid. Period.

GPL is an all-or-nothing type of deal, and that is one of the things that actually makes it so problematic to begin with.

Given that Richard Stallman and the FSF has not come after 3D Realms (who originally did the GPL-with-exception source release), Ken Silverman (who allowed it), or any of the developers that came after (up to and including the EDuke32 ones), I suspect that they simply don't care.

Ultimately, all the post-Apogee 3D Realms source releases would need to be taken to court in order to answer this question - because it's out in the wild, so only a judge could really answer the question, now. In the meantime, it's a licensing quagmire that none of us really have any clue what the fuck is going on.
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Re: Download links?

Postby Gammli » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:30 am

3DRealms and legal trouble -- is there a more iconic duo?
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Re: Download links?

Postby Kinsie » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:43 am

Gammli wrote:3DRealms and legal trouble -- is there a more iconic duo?
3D Realms and endlessly delaying things until they're ruined?
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Re: Download links?

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:55 am

@Rachael:
GPL with exception is perfectly valid. The real problem is that Ion Fury was the first time this was explicitly stated.
But even with that: Since no clear rights are specified anywhere I can only operate under the assumption of this being a proprietary non-profit license, like ZDoom, with the added complication that LGPLv3 is also blocked thanks to the GPLv2 code.
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