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PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:22 pm
by HobbsTiger1
I really hate to go off like this, but as the *sshat of the western world once said "it has to be done." So , I' ve got an idea, Instead of bashing each other and this project, lets listen to each other like good boys and girls. Oh, and one more thing:

Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends?

/hobbs waits for barrage of fire to come back at him.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:37 pm
HotWax wrote:
NiGHTMARE wrote:However, comments such as "remove the new monsters", "the new weapons suck", "not enough detail" don't help us any.

Have you thought about why people might dislike the new monsters? Does he have a point when he says you should stick to the classic monsters since this is a remake of classic levels? Is there anyway you could find a happy medium ground between completely reworked monsters and the classic ones so that everyone would be happy?

We already had a public topic discussing whether we should remove the new monsters (or even make them optional), and the overwhelming consesus was that they should be kept. If someone feels that strongly on the subject, then perhaps should have spoken up when they had the chance. Now the project is coming close to being finished, we and most other people are happy with the new monsters, and NMN and Vader have spent countless hours creating new sprites, time that would be wasted if we dumped them.

If we removed something just to please the minority, we would be disappointing most members of the team and the majority of the community. I'm afraid we cannot make everyone happy in this instance, so it's better to displease the (apparently extremely vocal) minority.

Have you thought about the issues brought up about the new weaponry? Do they really fit into the Doom atmosphere? Maybe the sound people find annoying could be replaced or altered so as not to be so distracting?

The rifle is FROM Doom (or rather, one of the Alphas), and as for the sound, only a single person has complained about that so far - everyone else seems perfectly happy with it. As for the other weapon, I could be wrong but I don't think it has been publically demonstrated yet, so no-one outside the team and the betatesters can really comment on that one.

Does he have a point that the detail doesn't seem to fit the theme? Could you find ways to make the levels more structured theme-wise? Are there places in the game that could use a little more detail or (god forbid) a little less to make them mesh better with the rest of the level? If people can tell the level was worked on by a dozen separate people, what ways can you think of to make it more consistant?

Nope, doesn't help us. If any of us team members personally didn't think any specific bits of detail fit the theme , we would already either have changed them or be planning to change them, prior to someone else telling us we should do so.

We cannot read people's minds, so we cannot possibly know which specific rooms they believe to be lacking in/have too much detail unless they tell us. If we just used "needs more/less detail" as a guide, we'll probably end up altering rooms the person who reported this problem found perfectly acceptable, with the rooms they disliked remaining exactly as they are.

I - and I'm sure most other team members - think the levels are already perfectly consistent, so someone coming along and expressing the opposite opinion doesn't really help any. People will need to provide some examples of what they're talking about, in order for us to "get inside their heads" and see it from their point of view.

You see, there is plenty of feedback in that one post. If you don't agree with it, fine, but if you're not going to pay any attention at all to what the community thinks of your community project, it's only going to result in more people disliking it.

As I said above, we're not mind readers. If we're already perfectly happy with the way some specific thing (e.g. a room) currently is, an over-generalization from someone who doesn't like that specific thing (but for some reason is unwilling/unable to tell us so), almost certainly isn't going to lead to it being changed.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:46 pm
by HotWax
The wonderful thing about a forum is that if you need to ask someone for more information, they're right here reading the forum whenever you're ready to post the question.

From your response, it's pretty clear that you simply don't give a shit what he thinks in this instance. The sad thing is, it's looking more and more like you simply don't give a shit what anyone else thinks.

You may want to consider changing this from a "community project" to a "Tormentor667 project"...

Oh wait, that's already been done. Nevermind.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:53 pm
Whether I care or not is irrelevant. The KDIZD team simply cannot do anything to address his concerns unless he provides more details of things he would like to be altered. I have asked people to turn their concerns into something which the KDIZD team can constructively use to help improve the project time and time and time again, yet have been almost consistently ignored. Since it's now become obvious that the vast majority of complainees have the time to complain but not the time to actually help us improve the project, I'm growing rather sick of asking.

Some of his concerns clash with opinions already provided by other people, and in such instances I'm afraid we're far more likely to listen to the majority than the minority. As I mentioned, this includes new monsters. We're also not going to waste hours (perhaps even days) of work based on opinions held by a couple of people.

I will say this last thing though: if anyone reading this dislikes any specific aspect of the project, TELL US ABOUT IT in something other than vague comments and over-generalizations. If you're only complaining for the sake of complaining then please go away now, but if you have a genuine wish for the project to get better, why not help us to make it better? If you don't, one of the people who's partially to blame when you dislike the finished, released project will be yourself...

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:14 pm
by Cutmanmike
I've already said what i'd like less of :lol:

PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:51 pm
Important note: Tormentor is CHEATING in the trailer :D! You can see plentiful use of the SSG, but in reality you can't get your hands on this weapon until very late in the episode. There may well be other examples of weapons use where that weapon isn't available in or before the level.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:58 am
by Curunir
Why on EARTH do I want to help and give extensive detailed constructive criticism to a narcissistic devteam who always have a better opinion and would never listen?

Also, RTC might have not had SEVENTEEN JIGGAWATTS OF LINEDEFS AND A QUARTER OF A MEGATON OF SECTORS but its detail was well thought out and achieved a much better artistic result than most of what I see in this trailer.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:19 am
by TheDarkArchon
HotWax wrote:
NiGHTMARE wrote:However, comments such as "remove the new monsters", "the new weapons suck", "not enough detail" don't help us any.

Have you thought about why people might dislike the new monsters? Does he have a point when he says you should stick to the classic monsters since this is a remake of classic levels?

Yeah, lets have only half a dozen monsters in our levels so it get repetivite as Hell (No pun intended).

Good one

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:34 am
by Cutmanmike
[opinion]I still say mummy imps are bad. Makes it look like heretic and feel more mystical than realistic (Ok so hell breaking loose isn't realistic but you know what I mean). Same with the stone imps (there ARE stone imps in this right?). The dark imps seem okay cause well... They're just harder imps... Like hell knight, and baron of hell. RIGHT?

Hopefully there will be some more munsters that aren't imp edits :P


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:21 am
by Vader
Stay cool Cutman!
I already did somethinig about the 'Mummyimp' and I think you´ll be pleased when KDIZD comes out!

Have faith in us :wink:

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:51 pm
by Lexus Alyus
WTF!/ i can't even download from the mirror because it says that free downloads are limited to file size!? Why can everyone else get this but I keep on failing?


PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:21 pm
by Tormentor667
@Curunir - Actually, I didn't do this "A Tormentor667 Project" in the trailer just to claim it was alone my work and my project. Everyone here knows that and everyone ever reading the text file in the end will know! While telling you it is a "Tormentor667 Project" in the trailer, I just meant the general idea of that and actually the idea of KDIZD is my idea... maybe I should have written something like that so this hairsplitting would finally stop!

Beyond that: Curunir, I really don't understand why you are turning towards us the way you actually do! Some weeks ago I thought you have been one of those KDiZD supporters, but now...?!

Nevertheless, this project has indeed turned out of the small room, the so called "community project" title. Actually, we have a team working on it, no complete community, the team decides who is accepted in participating and who isn't! The team just delivers info to the community of which the team thinks, public should know about! And this is the point where we get to a certain question: "For which decisions should we ask the whole doom community and which decisions should we make without asking?" Just think about what would have happened if Team Future asked about the player's speed in RTC? Just consider what would have happened if Scuba asked about the amount of health the player has and how the bullets went to turn out in the end?

Some decisions must be made by the team without even asking anyone non-priviledged! Those are decisions like leaving the plasma gun and bfg out and using a grenade launcher and high speed projectile rifle! Those are decisions like using new monsters or leaving them out! Those are decisions like how the overall style of KDiZD's maps should look like and how the should not!

For sure, you can try to give us sime feedback with useful reasons why we shouldn't add the rifle, why we shouldn't add hundreds of vertices and why we shouldn't use the monsters from the MRP! And if the reasons for that are good enough, we will consider removing something or changing it! But if it is shit and senseless whining about a certain part of KDiZD, nothing will change ever and in the end, the decision still lies in our hands!

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:24 pm
Curunir wrote:Why on EARTH do I want to help and give extensive detailed constructive criticism to a narcissistic devteam who always have a better opinion and would never listen?

If you're the sort of person who whines only for the sake of whining, then you're not the sort of person who's opinion I could actually care less about. So go find something more constructive to, such as making your own mod. Since you clearly believe other people berating your hard work is in fact an enjoyable experience, you shouln't have any problems when other people start telling you what a steaming pile of crap the fruit of your labour is.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:38 pm
by Nmn
NiGHTMARE wrote:If you're the sort of person who whines only for the sake of whining,

He is.

My memory is good. When Lexus was doing e1m5 back in August (search the topic) this insane dude starting posting some bullshit about the map being "overdetailed" and looking bad and stuff. Lexus was so pissed he tought about quiting the team. My advice-ignore.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:38 pm
by Curunir
Hahaha. You're all so blind it sometimes amuses me. Actually I WANT KDIZD to turn out good. Because that's in my and the community's best interest, so we have another great set of maps to play. If I'm whining it's because I see stuff I find out of place or needing improvement.

I know I'm not part of the team and I'm not expecting anyone to tailor this mod after MY personal taste. Maybe I had a different vision of this and this is why I whine, maybe the team did some things poorly, maybe some of both, maybe none, maybe people should stop calling me a KDIZD hater because I'm just pissed it's not as great as it could have been and I wanted it to be up there with the all-time greatest.

You ought to know that I'm not a random hater who spits at people for spitting's sake. For all Tormentor's egotism, I adore his maps and still think City of the Damned and the TNTs are some of the best maps ever done under the Doom engine. I appreciate the good music Lexus makes, I just didn't like his part of that map. Sometimes I'm having a bad day and it somehow creeps through in here, sometimes someone performs poorly and people hump him and I disagree, sometimes Saturn aligns in bad patterns and I can't help but throw a wad of mud at someone.

Dudes. That's some long post. I hope you get my meaning. Now, all smokers go for a cigarette and all non-smokers have a shot of brandy and contemplate the meaning of life.