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Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:22 pm
by Chris
I found an issue in The Farmhouse map that makes it impossible to progress normally:
Spoiler:

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 8:02 pm
by RKD
Ok, I'm about to venture myself into the Earthen Depths and, before that, some things to mention. So far, and generally speaking, the 2nd episode is awesome. Man, it ramps up in encounters density and the adrenaline just kept rushing, especially in the forest and the church levels. A lot of new enemies, new weapons to find, a lot of new tactics to explore. I'm having a lot of fun, truly. :D

Now, as usual, some reports, questions and other stuff:
Spoiler:


Having said that, though, I'll repeat myself: I'm having a lot of fun. So much that I can honestly ignore many of the stuff I mention and have a good time anyways.
Keep up with the good work! This game is great. :wink:

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:05 pm
by Emmanuelexe
Thanks for the report and comments :)

Map02, the amount of time we played this game, we didnt notice it... we will check it
for map10 light problem, i suppose we have to put the same light level for all the house? when its 3D floor, the light is the same in the different rooms at the vertical, right?
The secret of map08 can be found, its a house thing who has to be lowered if i remember but yeah, hard to notice, same thing in map12 with a pillar.

The Scythe allows you to regen 3 hp every time you kill an enemy, thats why we take care to not make this weapon OP...its a bit complicate.
I think the Hell Burner has as many hp as the Soul Eater (Nitro guy style) but in map13, he is gonna be very dangerous, not sure if its a good idea to make him more tanky for the actual maps, we will see

3D floor stuff :mrgreen:

We will check what we can do, im preparing a folder with the reports :geek:

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:40 am
by RKD
Alright, I went to double-check and have some erratas from my side when I was refering to the secrets. There wasn't any bug (whoops), so I'll correct myself about what happened, for those who read the spoiler:

[spoiler=The Forest]There is a switch behind a tree that lowers the sector, so you aren't supposed to step in the gargoyle. This changes my report to: It's possible to jump in the gargoyle candle statue to get inside, soft-locking you unintentionally.
And here I thought I was being clever :cry:[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Ice cave]The map scroll room in the sewer was never a secret to begin with. My bad :tongue:
Somehow I got the impression that said room wasn't accessible before and it was opened later on, but the true is that it was always accessible. Basically, I interpreted incorrectly the flow of the map. The actual secret it is in a pillar in the room where the fire key door is.[/spoiler]
Emmanuelexe wrote:for map10 light problem, i suppose we have to put the same light level for all the house?
I guess so. I'm not much of an expert since I haven't used as much 3D floors when mapping as in these levels, sorry. :oops:

Emmanuelexe wrote:The Scythe allows you to regen 3 hp every time you kill an enemy
Whaaaat? :shock:
Didn't realize it until you said so, lol. Man, a codex of sorts would come very handy for these stuff. :wink:

Still, I don't feel my suggestions aren't applicable. Even if it heals 3 hp per kill, with a max ammo of 20 it means 60 hp healing at most. I don't think it'd be possible to trivialize encounters too much with this because ammo for this weapon isn't abundant either (which also means the mappers did an excellent job balancing the pickups for this second episode so far, good job). Even if it you still prefer a max ammo of 30 as it currently is, it would be the same max possible hp overall throughout the campaign since it'd be directly dependant on how much ammo is available. And I said "possible" because not every hit is guaranteed to earn you a kill, unless used against low-tier enemies (which it's pretty wasteful for a slot 7 weapon). It also depends if there's a slot 8 weapon or not, now that I think about it.

I could expand on this suggestion to explore all the different ways in which this weapon can be balanced (less hp gain, non-ripper projectile, etc) but not right now. Even if they're discarded anyways, I may do it just for fun. I like when something inspires creativity :tongue:

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:49 pm
by Rachael

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:00 pm
by Enjay
Congratulations on the full release and it's great to see the game getting a nice positive reception.

Is there any word on whether a GoG release might be happening?

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:02 pm
by peewee_RotA
I can't get through the cracked wall in the farmhouse. Even hitting it with stonebreaker says that I need a more power to get through the wall.

Confirmed in a steam community guide that it should be stonebreaker. This is that secret.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2824459583

Looks like the glitch required me to either aim really high or jump to break it. Hitting it too low just repeats the message.

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:13 pm
by Rachael
Enjay wrote:Is there any word on whether a GoG release might be happening?

We're trying to - GoG is not as easy a platform to break into as Steam is.

We are trying for itch.io too though.

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:09 pm
by Rachael
Full game is now available on itch.io!

https://frechou-games.itch.io/hands-of-necromancy



Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:36 pm
by Emmanuelexe
RKD > i made this topic in steam for now, if it can help
Manual/Tips:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1898610/ ... 819928440/

We are fixing stuff

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:10 pm
by gennoveus
The demo was fantastic; I'll 100% be picking this up. I'm going to wait until *after* the sale so I can support you guys with a full price purchase. Great work, guys!

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:05 pm
by RKD
Emmanuelexe wrote:Manual/Tips
That helps a lot indeed, for the meantime. Hope people would be able to check it in the discussion page.

I've just beat The Earthen Depths after approx 2h and a half and it was the first level I felt it was tough and exhausting. Not in a completely bad way, don't worry. :lol:
[spoiler=Feedback on the map]It has an impressive level design and, actually, never felt too lost. It's full of 3D floors and that causes some visual glitches, though. There isn't much to do about it, tbh, but I'll leave two of the more obvious ones I came across: One was in this room and the other was in this 3D elevator.
There's a lot of slopes so I reckon some people probably won't like the platforming in this map. It's doable, albeit with a lot of quickloading.

On a more subjective note, I feel this level missed the opportunity to had mandatory walks on lava using the hell burner transformation. I know it has its use in the final area to grab extra ammo but reaching those platforms is not mandatory, they're optional.
Also, the only thing I didn't like was the inability to stop the constant waves of cultists. I can stand having that pressure the entire level, that's great, but it doesn't feel rewarding to reach the end of it and still having them spawning endlessly, imo. It should be a linedef or trigger of any sort that kills the spawners (or whatever it is) or stops them in some way. Having a massive map with a looooong way to go and making it to the final platform with the portal should, at least, give the player the joy of "well, now you can leave or go hunting those secrets you missed in peace at last". That would be my only gripe with this map.[/spoiler]

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:14 pm
by Emmanuelexe
I agree for the last area, we will see what is possible to do
But yeah map13 was a bit too big :p

Hope you will have fun with the next map and the episode 3! :)

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:31 am
by peewee_RotA
Rachael wrote:GoG is not as easy a platform to break into as Steam is.


This statement gives me anxiety. This is literally why GoG exists. GoG needs to get it together.

Re: Hands of Necromancy [Full game released!]

Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:12 pm
by RKD
I've finished the game and enjoyed the experience very much. Amazing work!
I want to go through the levels I haven't talked about but I'm gonna start with the final boss because it has a really important exploit, imo, which I assume it was just an oversight:
[spoiler=Final boss exploit spoiler]I beat it normally at first (I'll talk about this in the last section), but I liked it overall and loaded a quicksave right before interacting with the last switch to beat him again. In this second fight, I went in wyvern form. If you spam alt-fire attacks (specially in strafe circles), it's possible to cheese the boss in around ten seconds before you even run out of ammo, trivializing the fight entirely. Thank god I didn't do this the first time or it would've been depressing. :lol:

Here is my savegame in google drive, in case you guys need a quick test. Keep the wyvern form and, once the boss appears, spam "fire breaths" at him at very close distance. Piece of cake. This happens because the boss doesn't get "pushed" by these attacks (as one would expect from a boss), so he takes the most damage of all the "ripper" projectiles.
From the top of my head, I can think of two possible solutions right now: Make him resistant to that specific attack or, probably more interesting, have a twist and make the player unable to morph in that fight. I've got some more feedback for this final encounter but I'll leave it for its own spoiler tag.[/spoiler]
Here I'm gonna talk about the maps and the new stuff introduced in the 3rd episode:
[spoiler=General feedback, impressions and everything else]
  • Earthen Depths:
    - In one of the early stages of the map, there's a room with a switch that raises a platform with red corners. It's possible to squeeze between the crack in the wall in serpent form instead of going the intended way that requires you to break a wall. Not really game-breaking, just saves you a couple of steps, but I thought I should mention it for them speedrunners :P
    Shown in these two pics.
  • Frozen Fortress:
    - Great level. Short but packed with a good ammount of monsters. I liked its size, specially as a balance after the previous one. I'd take the ice dragon introduced at the end of the previous map out and make its first appearance in this level, instead. Perfect spot would be after flipping the switch that opens the main entrance to the stronghold. Make it two for extra impression.
    - The boss wasn't bad but the traps are a flaw, imo. More than pressuring the player, they end up helping him. Half of the enemy reinforcements were killed by the traps and even the boss died from the fireballs spat out from one of the faces in the wall. It would be nice if the boss had different attack patterns going in stages, at least. The weakest of the three boss fights.
  • Ancient Ruins:
    - Liked the architecture and sense of verticality. It suffers from "too dark" syndrome like in The Forest (2nd hub), but only when indoors. Outdoors I could see pretty well, even with sector light mode set on "Dark", which makes the dark spots more noticeable.
    - Navigation-wise, it's a little weaker than the previous two hubs, because there's no way you can reach the linedef that triggers the objectives list giving you a primary sense of direction, thus making this hub behave like in Hexen (which is bad, considering the previous two hubs doing it right). A suggestion would be to move the linedef with the script call to the platform across (or the alcove on a side), so the player can activate it at the beginning, and not at the very end when it's already pointless.
    - Because of this lack of direction, I just went in order, from the closer to the farthest portal. Feeling neutral about it.
  • Volcano:
    - I understand the use of architectural structures to set this apart from the other lava-themed levels (Factory and Earthern Depths), but I felt Earthern Depths looked more volcano-like than this one, sorry. It looks like a dwarfen city overrun by magma, though. Maybe a different name would suit it better.
    - Aside from the architecture, it could use more wyverns. Replace some of the gargoyles with those, since they fit better with the thematic, imo, instead of having a gazillion gargoyles everywhere and just a few wyverns in one spot and never again.
    - The map scroll counting as a secret was pretty lame. The crystal of life would be a better candidate for that, since it actually requires you to go slightly more out of your way to get it.
    - Right after getting the skull key, there's a wall that lets you see through.
  • Swamp:
    - The most swampy swamp of the kingdom. Liked it a lot. I think it was one of my favourites in the episode.
    - These two sectors are not 3D floor and, therefore, they killed the fishes before I even got into the water.
  • Temple of Iron:
    - Fun to navigate. Got the Iron key before coming here, so I went in one go.
    - A minor nitpick: it has a lot of linedefs not marked as "not show in automap", so it's possible to see 3D control floors and slopes. In happens too in the other levels but this is the more obvious one.
  • Abandoned Castle:
    - Also my favourite in the episode. Loved the layout, the encounters, the architecture, the decorations. Loved the secret easter egg. :wink:
    - Not sure if the skybox was supposed to look like this. Probably not.
  • Mountain of Evil:
    - Awesome introduction to the purple liquid, right infront of you as soon as you enter the map. Well done. Having said that, though, I couldn't figure it out what is supposed to do. There's a message the first time you get close to it but I didn't understand what "no morph can tread" meant.
    PD: I've googled it right now while writing. I get it now but it's... kinda redundant? If I think about it, idk. My first thought was that you can't morph while stepping on it, so you gotta fly over it instead. If possible, I suggest that effect to make it more interesting without breaking the map (you have to fly anyways).
  • Wyvern form, wyvern enemy and ice dragon:
    - I like that wyvern form flies slowly to make running still viable but I couldn't help to notice wyvern enemies have way more mobility. I can ignore it just fine but I bet someone is gonna point that out eventually. :lol:
    - Alt-fire is really good and I like that is the perfect counter against ice dragons. Weapons are not as effective against them and they require a lot of ammo to take down, hence, getting the wyvern form feels truly rewarding in that sense, aside from the flying ability. Very, very neat.
    - Ice dragon could have a secondary attack to make it more interesting, even if it's just for eye-candy.
    - Both enemies are 3D models but, curiously enough, is not too noticeable for the dragon when in-game for some reason. I like that it looks menacing and inspires threat. Wyvern, on the other hand, is pretty obvious 3D render and can be kinda distracting.
    - Dragon became my favourite monster in the game. Good job with that one! :thumb:
[/spoiler]
And finally, the last map and my thoughts and suggestions on it:
[spoiler=Final boss fight review]Pros:
- Cool entrance with explosions.
- It made me use everything I had. All items and almost all ammo. The guy sure can take a hit.
- Attack patterns were simple yet efective. Made me look for the right timing to use an item or attack.
- Reinforcements to spice the battle up are always welcome.
Cons:
- I felt that having only gargoyles spawning in was a little boring. There are around 20 enemies to pick from, you can give some variety there.
- The fight wasn't as impressive as the first boss, who had the floor collapsing/lowering to signal different stages of the encounter. My ranking would be 1st boss > 3rd boss >>> 2nd boss.

Suggestions:
- Having extra enemies spawn with each switch activation: If you play like me and kill everything on sight before activating anything, you just find yourself flying from one switch to another in complete solitude afterwards. Having different groups of enemies to spawn depending on the switch flipped would liven things up before the final showdown. Spawn extra ammo if possible or it may not be sufficient.
- Purple liquid instead of the green currently present: The boss becomes green when teleporting and launches green thingies in one of his attacks. Said color can make the boss/attacks blend somewhat with the "landscape". I found myself losing sight of the boss in several occassions, even when he was right in front of me. Having a purple background would improve this, I think.
PD: If the purple liquid has the effect of preventing transformations and the player can't transform and cheese the fight once the boss appears (both ideas suggested above), it would all fit together. Think about it: there's a field in the "arena" so you can't escape and, if you can't transform, it could be interpreted as "this boss has great power and is able to cancel out NecroGuy powers to morph", as if that purple liquid were of his making. Idk, I think it could justify this stuff while making sense overall. :lol:
- Have other enemies spawn among gargoyles: I don't mean to not use gargoyles in that fight as reinforcements. I suspect the point was having something not-too-overwhelming but pestering enough. I can't recall how many portals were there, but let's say there were five. Have gargoyles coming from three of them and the other two spawn shield knights or ghosts. Even wyverns, probably, since they're mid-tier monsters.
- Divide the fight in three stages: Or more, if the team gets inspiration. I think of something like: first stage until 50% hp being what we see currently. After that, second stage where the boss does his teleport animation, dissappears and a handful of dragons appear (three to five, for example). Spawn extra ammo here or lift the unability to morph if that is what you decide to go with (otherwise there won't be enough firepower for this). When all of these are killed, the boss reappears with at least one different attack pattern (or addition) marking the third and final stage. Just an easy way to make this even more engaging and memorable.
PD: I've just thought it would be cool if the boss were riding one of the dragons too in that second stage I mentioned as an example. Just a loose idea, tho.

So yeah, those would be my takes on this final level.[/spoiler]

I'm gonna end by saying that it was a quite decent finale. It could be better, but the last battle was great and it felt satisfactory, imo. I like the connection of the bosses with one another, I see what you guys did there and I'm all in for it. :wink:
It was worth the wait and I'm looking forward to replaying this!