Eternal Doom HD

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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Willy W. » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:59 am

This is an interesting project, I do like the idea of cleaning up some (G)ZDoom-specific bugs in the wad like enemies sinking into the floor, the stairs being messed up with the wrong compatibility settings and potentially softlocking you, enemies not seeing you when they're on tall self-referencing sectors or when they're supposed to look through the forcefields and so on. Some maps could also be fixed to make UV-maxing easier by remaking certain super-slow monster closets like on Pathos or Warheros. I also really like the new HUD, it adds a lot of cute detail without removing anything from the original megawad. I'm running (and admittedly failing to lead) a community project on Doomworld that makes a new soundtrack for the wad using the old one as a sort of a base - if you want you could probably use the new music in this project too, once it's finished. Though I do honestly have to tell you this - I'm a bit worried about some of the changes in progression you're planning to make.

Thing about Eternal Doom is that it's more of an adventure game than it is a Doom wad, I like to think of it as something closer to Hexen than to Doom. So you kinda do have to expect that some of the puzzles to be a bit tough and I do admit that some of them are complete BS. But the issue comes in the fact that diferent people are going to have a very different limit on what constitutes a BS puzzle. For example the light-indication in Pathos I really don't think warrants any changes - yes, you're probably not going to notice it when you first look at the room, but it's far from impossible to notice when you're paying attention and it teaches you that paying attention to details is something you're going to have to get used to. Tower of Hell in my opinion doesn't need any changes either, most players are probably going to get stuck for a bit on the X switch or the crate, but it's easy to guess that the rooms they're in need to be explored thoroughly by the way the map guides you into them. It's a bit more subtle than a misaligned texture or a straight up arrow on the floor, but to me it's really the subtlety of the clues for progression that makes Eternal Doom so fun and special to me - they're there the vast majority of the time, you just need to notice them. And what I'm worried about is that you're going to go a bit overboard with changing the original maps to a point where you remove what to me makes them so great.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:14 am

Perhaps we've been playing different adventure games. I remember civilized devs like LucasArts atleast giving you a bit of a bone to work with in their adventure games, helps that the point and click interface would show if something's interactible instead of you pixel hunting and right clicking everything on the screen. You may be thinking of the old Sierra ones where it's not afraid to softlock you several hours into the game because you forgot to save a rat early on from a seemingly insignificant sequence, which I suppose explains the supernova mental brainpower to the point where one would openly support mandatory secrets like they're the paragon of player progression. Certainly an interesting argument to call humping walls "easy to guess", but well, I suppose tastes and preferences vary vastly between individuals.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Willy W. » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:32 am

Like I said, different people have a different limit on what constitutes a BS secret for them. I think most of the ones in Eternal Doom are creative and very well balanced to what they expect the player to take notice of and you're really exaggerating their difficulty. But if running around and figuring them out doesn't fit your fancy, there's a plethora of wads that are way more straight-forward in their progression that you could play - Epic 2 is one that has a similar feel to Eternal Doom, but isn't nearly as cryptic for example.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:39 am

I think the bit that gets me is how changing the mandatory secrets in Eternal Doom would somehow ruin it for you, someone who probably already knows the progression to heart anyways.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Willy W. » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:59 am

That I do unfortunately... and it genuinely saddens me that I won't be able to ever replay Excalibur for the first time, as it's one of the most fun I've ever had with Doom. But even if I don't get to figure all the maps out again, I can still keep recommending it to people who like this stuff too. It's like when someone remakes a movie you really like and in his version removes the main that enticed you about it, maybe he takes away some of the slower scenes where you get to know the characters better in favour of more action scenes - sure, it might appeal to more people, but maybe it's not what the current fans or the original authors would have wanted. And the thing is, I do use GZDoom as my go-to source port and I do really like some of the other stuff this project does and could do like the revamped HUD or fixing the glitches, so I'm hoping this could become the definitive way of playing one of my favourite wads on my favourite source port, but messing with the progression too much would ruin that.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:16 am

Willy W. wrote:slower scenes where you get to know the characters better


I personally think that mandatory secrets are not that. The closer equivalent would probably be scenes where the director decides to waste several minutes having the camera just look at unrelated scenery instead of doing anything useful with the runtime like the aforementioned character development. But well, agree to disagree. I feel extremely strongly against mandatory secrets, and it seems that you feel the opposite, finding merit in the blasted things, so I suppose it's very much something that we probably wouldn't be able to come to an agreement with no matter the argument placed.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Willy W. » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:59 am

Yeah, ultimately it's up the the project author how he wants to handle things. I just wanted to weigh in with some counteropinions.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:05 pm

Willy W. wrote:a community project on Doomworld that makes a new soundtrack for the wad using the old one as a sort of a base - if you want you could probably use the new music in this project too, once it's finished.

Yes someone in a Coincident video linked your project, I also stumbed upon [Eternal Doom] MAP02 - Tower of Heck || UV MAX Speedrun in 8m 54s and thought 2 different people where making ED remixes.

Willy W. wrote:Though I do honestly have to tell you this - I'm a bit worried about some of the changes in progression you're planning to make.

I am planning to make "Pistol Only" lead to "Halls of Disarray" then "Guardstation", "The Crypt", and "Celebration of Evil" it felt extremely weird how they changed it in ED3 over ED2. "Monster Mansion" will also be moved to after "TimeSlip".

Willy W. wrote:Thing about Eternal Doom is that it's more of an adventure game than it is a Doom wad, I like to think of it as something closer to Hexen than to Doom.

Ya I plan to keep that feel to it, I think the Doom combat is quite fun with a bit of a pause in between.
I do want to make it less of a wall to start. my plan is to make it so that main path will have a minimum 4 hints for Maps 01-13, and then allow it to get harder from there.

ZikShadow wrote:Perhaps we've been playing different adventure games. I remember civilized devs like LucasArts atleast giving you a bit of a bone to work with in their adventure games

I am aiming to push Eternal Doom from a more Sierra style difficulty to a more fair Lucas Arts difficulty.
I do not want there to be ANY way to soft lock yourself and not know it, like the archvile jump Map20 had.

ZikShadow wrote:Certainly an interesting argument to call humping walls "easy to guess", but well, I suppose tastes and preferences vary vastly between individuals.

I do agree that humping walls is a degenerate form of game play and makes for a worse experience, that is why I want it to feel like a reasonable person could stop and take a short look around to find the hidden path forward.
If someone gets 100% secrets because the way forward is to confusing that is bad design.
My goal is not to gloat over people for my giant brain but instead to help people to enjoy something challenging that I enjoyed.

Willy W. wrote:That I do unfortunately... and it genuinely saddens me that I won't be able to ever replay Excalibur for the first time, as it's one of the most fun I've ever had with Doom.

I have "special" plans for some of the later maps.

Willy W. wrote:It's like when someone remakes a movie you really like and in his version removes the main that enticed you about it, maybe he takes away some of the slower scenes where you get to know the characters better in favour of more action scenes - sure, it might appeal to more people, but maybe it's not what the current fans or the original authors would have wanted.

I see myself as taking Eternal Doom and upping the speed from 2001 A Space odyssey to Star Trek 2. I do not want to take Star Trek 2 and making it into Star Trek Into Darkness. :-P
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby SamVision » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:59 pm

Personally speaking, if you aren't going to comb through all of Eternal Doom maps to fix its progression problems, bugs, and game design issues then I dont think there is a point at all to remaking or improving it. An issue I always see when it comes to projects like these is the unwillingness for authors to acknowledge the major flaws of the original work. These old wads are very imperfect and have serious issues, which is why a lot of them have aged poorly. If you want to "preserve" the mediocre game design at play here and dont want to bring the level design up to modern standards, then I say theres no point to updating Eternal Doom. I believe the wad itself is something of a time capsule, and I dont think its enough to just take a time capsule and spit-shine it.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:57 am

SamVision wrote:Personally speaking, if you aren't going to comb through all of Eternal Doom maps to fix its progression problems, bugs, and game design issues then I dont think there is a point at all to remaking or improving it. An issue I always see when it comes to projects like these is the unwillingness for authors to acknowledge the major flaws of the original work. These old wads are very imperfect and have serious issues, which is why a lot of them have aged poorly. If you want to "preserve" the mediocre game design at play here and dont want to bring the level design up to modern standards, then I say theres no point to updating Eternal Doom. I believe the wad itself is something of a time capsule, and I dont think its enough to just take a time capsule and spit-shine it.


I intend to fix its progression problems, and bugs. I do not want you to be able to soft lock yourself by dieing in multiplayer or by hitting switches in an unexpected order in single player.
I am not unwilling to discuss it. I explained my point of view to ZikShadow and he even pointed out that I made a mistake. I want to make it so that people can acclimatize to the different style of gameplay in Eternal Doom, to take a minute and look at things rather than just wall hump hoping for something to happen.


I have uploaded a 2nd alpha version that include 3 more levels and fixes some of the bugs in the first episode.
I also am trying to add more skys, I know they do not all scale vertically, and I want to see what people think.
http://www.humenet.net/doom/eternal/Eternal%20Doom%20HD%20A02.pk3
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