Eternal Doom HD

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Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:34 am



I was always a big fan of Eternal Doom, I liked the environments and exploration it was quite distinct looking from everything else at the time.
I wanted to make a new version to improve Gzdoom and Zandronium compatibility, enhance the look of some things that where confusing or showed the age of Eternal Doom and introduce a new generation of people people.
I welcome help from any one else who liked Eternal Doom, help editing/spell checking and with graphics especially.

Preview
Spoiler:


Progress
Spoiler:


Bugs
Spoiler:


Gameplay
Spoiler:


Download
Chrome refuses to recognize this like for some reason unless you copy and paste it
http://www.humenet.net/doom/eternal/Eternal%20Doom%20HD%20A01.pk3
http://www.humenet.net/doom/eternal/Eternal%20Doom%20HD%20A02.pk3
This is an addon to Eternal Doom 3 https://www.doomworld.com/idgames/themes/TeamTNT/eternal/eternal

Version history
Spoiler:
Last edited by Evil Space Tomato on Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Eternall Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:26 am

If it removes mandatory secrets, I'm down. Never have I tossed a wad faster into the bin for having an elevator or door to progress look the exact same as the walls surrounding it. The occasional fake walls that hide enemies also did not click with me.
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Re: Eternall Doom HD

Postby JohnnyTheWolf » Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:39 am

There is a typo in the title: "Eternall".

Also, why is DoomGuy purple now? :?
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Re: Eternall Doom HD

Postby Enjay » Wed Nov 10, 2021 12:35 pm

Evil Space Tomato wrote:Chrome refuses to recognize this like for some reason unless you copy and paste it
http://www.humenet.net/doom/eternal/Eternal%20Doom%20HD%20A01.pk3

The reason is almost certainly that Chrome is very strict about http links to files and only allows https ones. I upgraded my own website a month or so ago because users were finding the http links were not working. Now that they are all https ones, it's fine.

As for the project itself - interesting idea. I won't get a chance to look at it properly until the weekend but I am interested to see how how it's working out.
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Re: Eternall Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Wed Nov 10, 2021 7:28 pm

ZikShadow wrote:If it removes mandatory secrets, I'm down. Never have I tossed a wad faster into the bin for having an elevator or door to progress look the exact same as the walls surrounding it. The occasional fake walls that hide enemies also did not click with me.

I intend to make things subtly more obvious where appropriate and much more obvious in a few spots where it was absurd (such as Map20).
I made the first X stone in map02 more obvious by intentionally mis-aligning it with the other stones.
I have also tried to remove many of the weird fake walls they used early on that enemies would randomly shoot you though.
Do you have any specific spots that you think are bad?
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Re: Eternall Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:14 pm

To put in simple terms, basically anything that does Poor on this image.



I'm fine with puzzles if they're well communicated to the player with the player figuring out where the pieces go. I am not fine with "puzzles" that hide the pieces away, basically amount to humping every wall until you open up the way to progress, or using insane inconsistent logic like what Arctic Wolf did in that dam revisit map where the path you initially traveled from is blocked, so you had to use a whole giant "wall" that's not even usable in the previous map. That's not a "puzzle", that's wasting the player's time.

Any mapset that does that shenanigan is immediately tossed out for me, I'm not even going to give them the courtesy of finishing the lot, no matter how many awards or praise it gets. After all, if even one of this gets let in, there's no telling if the next map over is going to do it again.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:21 pm

The first episode should not have that sort of required wall humping.

I think the first level that that started to occur in was Pathos, for one instance it used lighting cues to show one of the walls was special, for the other it locked you in a tiny room and you just had to check 8ish walls.
In the first case I am making the texture stand out more, and changing it from "1-sided on map".
In the 2nd case I simply made the wall a switch.

Spoiler:


Give episode 1 a try and tell me if you run into any issues.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:57 pm

I see the bit that made me toss out Eternal Doom to the bin in the first place is still there, completely untampered.
Tower of Hell. Entering the area with the red key blocks you into the area, entering the storage room reveals no switches or doors that look unique, until one humps the wall and rapidly presses the use key, upon which this pillar of crates that looks no different from the rest of the crates around it lowers allowing players to finally exit.

Perhaps your definition of "removing" mandatory secrets and mine are a pinch different, hmm?



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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Doomguy914 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:00 pm

This project sounds like fun and something I would be able to check out. I always enjoyed the Eternal Doom maps, aside from some very frustrating mandatory switches, (one of which is a literal fucking tree :bang: ,) Although I'm not sure what kind of spell-checking is required, I'll do what I can to sort through this thing. :D
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:44 pm

ZikShadow wrote:I see the bit that made me toss out Eternal Doom to the bin in the first place is still there, completely untampered.
Tower of Hell. Entering the area with the red key blocks you into the area, entering the storage room reveals no switches or doors that look unique, until one humps the wall and rapidly presses the use key, upon which this pillar of crates that looks no different from the rest of the crates around it lowers allowing players to finally exit.

Perhaps your definition of "removing" mandatory secrets and mine are a pinch different, hmm?


Good catch, I forgot to fix the crates.
I also noticed I somehow broke the stairs in Map03 without noticing.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:54 pm

Evil Space Tomato wrote:
Spoiler:


This is something that I'm curious about. Every time I see mandatory secrets, I wonder what's the reasoning for its introduction instead of an every day door? Following that, if progression itself requires secret hunting mindset, what kind of mindset do the mappers demand from players for proper secret hunting? People like to use the "puzzle" excuse, but in reality it's neither a test of ingenuity or knowledge, more a patience test because you're punishing players for not looking at the right thing, and now they have to explore the whole area for hours on end to find that one tiny speck of different wall just to move forward.

Assuming of course, that the mapper would even provide the courtesy of having the path to progress use a slightly different texture to the rest of the wall surrounding it. (Yes, I'm looking at you, Mordeth. A dozen locked doors that all look the same, a quarter of which opened by switches, with the one door that players have to use directly to open looking no different from the rest, is crime of the highest order.)

Players tend to have a specific mindset whenever they look for secrets. Searching for off-looking textures in a long line of walls, using walls that sit between torches or behind banners, doing leaps of faith to get to ledges that lead seemingly nowhere, hugging and using everything just incase they end up as fake walls or usable decor sprites that lead to supplies, backtracking whole maps 'cause that hidden switch they flick might open a wall on the opposite end, the works.

If progression itself forces secret hunting mindset, you'll end up with situations where players end up accidentally finding secrets instead of the way to progress, which frustrates more than it does satisfy, 'cause it's accidental. It stops being a reward for being attentive and watching for subtle clues, and instead is just another dead end in the search for the way to the exit.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Phredreeke » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:09 am

Given the mod's name, do you plan to update the graphics as well? (be it either neural upscales or manual remakes)
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Evil Space Tomato » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:23 pm

ZikShadow wrote:This is something that I'm curious about. Every time I see mandatory secrets, I wonder what's the reasoning for its introduction instead of an every day door? Following that, if progression itself requires secret hunting mindset, what kind of mindset do the mappers demand from players for proper secret hunting? People like to use the "puzzle" excuse, but in reality it's neither a test of ingenuity or knowledge, more a patience test because you're punishing players for not looking at the right thing, and now they have to explore the whole area for hours on end to find that one tiny speck of different wall just to move forward.

My goal with that sort of "mandatory secrets" is to make the player stop and think for a bit rather than wall humping. Thats why I am going for subtle details rather than an obvious door, but also why I want to get rid of the identical looking walls.

ZikShadow wrote:If progression itself forces secret hunting mindset, you'll end up with situations where players end up accidentally finding secrets instead of the way to progress, which frustrates more than it does satisfy, 'cause it's accidental. It stops being a reward for being attentive and watching for subtle clues, and instead is just another dead end in the search for the way to the exit.

Yes finding a dead-end secret when you are looking to progress is frustrating and I an trying to come up with a good way in game to subtly help the player forward, while also encouraging them to take it slow and enjoy the environments.

Phredreeke wrote:Given the mod's name, do you plan to update the graphics as well? (be it either neural upscales or manual remakes)

No, I'm not a fan of the neural upscales. I am not much of an artist either, but I do plan to see if I can restore the textures and sprites to their original palette. I am also doing some stuff to the levels to enhance their look, such as making the deep water blue, and improving forcefields.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby ZikShadow » Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:37 pm

Evil Space Tomato wrote:My goal with that sort of "mandatory secrets" is to make the player stop and think for a bit rather than wall humping. Thats why I am going for subtle details rather than an obvious door, but also why I want to get rid of the identical looking walls.


Mandatory secrets promotes wall humping. It doesn't matter what the intention is, you're going to end up with players eventually getting lost and spending the next 15 minutes looking at every wall that looks funny and using them. If you didn't block the previous area, they might even fallback to those areas and search in the completely wrong place. It does not make the player think because it's easier to just rapidly press use against a long line of wall the moment progress stops instead of pausing to look around if maybe that wall has a single different colored brick from the rest. A good puzzle is one that's harder to brute force than solved with intelligence, and mandatory secrets ain't one.

I'll finish arguing with the above paragraph. I've said everything I could on why I particularly detest mandatory secrets as a form of progression (preferring complete extermination rather than simply reducing or improving on them), and if all that won't convince you, then I won't pursue the line of inquiry further. If you insist on including these things anyways, then I won't stop you. It's your power as the one developing this redux.
Thanks for the clarification of intent, at the very least.
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Re: Eternal Doom HD

Postby Arcterezion » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:23 pm

On the subject of mandatory secrets: They've definitely never been a good idea. Hexen at times feels somewhat as if it has these. Which is why it gets a fair bit of flak even to this day.

I've always liked the overall look of Eternal Doom, but never got into it because of the mandatory secrets. I'd greatly look forward to a version of Eternal Doom which does not have any of those, and I'm sure many others would as well.
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