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Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:00 am
by Rachael
Adding Korean to GZDoom is going to be a bit tricky, though. I was once linked this video:


If you want official Korean support then GZDoom's input methods will have to support that.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:46 am
by Graf Zahl
As a first step it'd be enough to have Korean text displayed. If we need Korean input it needs to be implemented by someone with more knowledge.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:28 am
by Graf Zahl
I just went ahead and copied the Korean texts from the spreadsheets linked in the first post to my own tables. So I'd appreciate if all further work on the texts was done there - for the rest of this project that should have no impact, but this language will allow me to implement generic fallbacks for all in-game screens for languages that are not supported by the game-provided fonts.

BTW, the Korean table was bugged. Line 1682 and 1683 of the engine texts are both "smooth" but this duplication was not present in the Korean text. Instead line 1890 contained nonsense. Good thing that some stuff in there was immediately obvious to be wrong, but it took me some time to find the one with incorrect content.

One other thing: I noticed that nearly every text containing substitution placeholders has text in parentheses behind. Is this some gender specific stuff? If yes, shouldn't it use the macro system?

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:32 am
by Captain J
Thanks for the feedback and concern, Graf. You're truly helping us here! And i see... We'll try our best. We've still got more translations to be done with!

EDIT: Just checked the string 1682 and 1683 you mentioned. It seems they're all correct and not mismatched anymore! Thanks for the hot fix!

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:30 am
by Graf Zahl
I surely fixed it in my copy when I found this out. Took a bit of time to find the last one that was wrong, through, because I had to copy/paste all those texts into Google Translate to see where things started being right again.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:09 am
by Captain J
Yeah, i can see that. Thanks for fixing it nonetheless. Anyway about that substitution placeholder question, did you mean some 이(가), 은(는) and 을(를)? That was intentional, but i don't mean for just gender specific measure.

They're for the Specification of certain syllables. Some Hangul Combinations includes Bearing. One of 이(가) are used depends on the word's verb. 은(는) are also kinda same as the former, but it's about sentence. Or if you have another way to specify them, automatically or better, let me know!

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:14 am
by Graf Zahl
On what do they depend? If it's the player's gender, the macro system was specifically designed for having gender dependent variations.
I think it's best you explain this on a concrete example.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:55 am
by Captain J
Sorry if i couldn't elaborate this enough, but no. THAT IS NOT FOR THE GENDER SPECIFICATION. We already solved this problem a few days ago. That's just for syllable Specification. Like i said, it depends on certain hangul combinations with bearing.


I can't explain with more detail, so this video might help.

EDIT: Also pardon me... Instead of Bearing(받침), "Syllable Final Position" might be more understandable. I'm not very familiar with this. Sorry.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:27 pm
by Graf Zahl
That video explained it quite well. And that's indeed a bit tricky to handle in generated texts.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:12 pm
by Gez
Okay, it's just a phonetic issue, using eun or neun (or i/ga) depending on how the attached word ends.

So it's kind of the mirror situation to something like a/an in English: A beaver, an otter; we use one word or the other depending on how the next word starts. With these particles it's the same thing except it depends on how the previous word ends. Right? And it's a problem for translation when the translator doesn't know the previous word because it's a placeholder for a player name or something like that.

So this could be handled by macros for each particle pair that would select the one appropriate depending on the last letter of the previous character. Depending on how hangeul is implemented in Unicode it can be more or less complicated to do that check.

For player names, can you cheat somehow with honorifics? Something like "<Player>-ssi neun" ? Sorry if that's a dumb idea.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:14 am
by Graf Zahl
Actually, in German there's a similar problem when a name ends with an 's'.
Normally the possessive form of a name is created by appending an 's' to the name - but when the name ends with an 's' an apostrophe is added instead. Currently the name substitution mechanism does not handle that as well because it's a bit hard to write rules and an evaluator for these things.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:25 am
by Captain J
Gez definitely explained a lot and that's what i wanted to say, in fact. Unfortunately to me, it takes a lot of research and time. But again, Gez explained better. And though... Honorifics on the project sounds pretty redundant, since any Game with Korean doesn't describe Characters like that unless the Speaker is Young, Polite or just in First Person.

And that's interesting! German also has the thing in common. You fellas are doing really great, contributing for this project even!

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:00 am
by Graf Zahl
You'd be surprised what kinds of quirks may await in some languages.
Localization has been part of my jobs for many years and I find this a very fascinating subject in general, that's why I am investing so much work here, even though I'll most likely never use the non-English texts myself. But just proving all those people wrong who said that localizing Doom is not possible is extremely satisfying. Looking at the other ports out there, there isn't one that's in widespread use with even fragments of a working localization system.

Of course I cannot give any guarantees about how some mods will deal with non-English languages. Some will most certainly fail miserably so the entire localization feature will probably require an off-switch shortcut that leaves the user settings intact and just forces everything back to English.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:15 am
by Enjay
Graf Zahl wrote:Actually, in German there's a similar problem when a name ends with an 's'.
Normally the possessive form of a name is created by appending an 's' to the name - but when the name ends with an 's' an apostrophe is added instead. Currently the name substitution mechanism does not handle that as well because it's a bit hard to write rules and an evaluator for these things.

That both exists and doesn't exist in English too - because both "s'" and "s's" are considered grammatically correct:

Player chewed on James' boomstick!

Player chewed on James's boomstick!

are both considered to be correct. Personally, I think the second one looks clumsy and would tend not to use it though.

Plural possession also impacts on the use/position of the apostrophe.

"The boy's shotgun" refers to one shotgun belonging to a boy.

"The boys' shotgun" refers to multiple boys all of whom have a single shotgun between them.

"The boys' shotguns" refers to multiple boys with multiple shotguns.

Re: [WIP] GZ둠 한국어 번역 프로젝트/Korean Translation of GZDoom

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:32 am
by Graf Zahl
Enjay wrote:Player chewed on James' boomstick!

Player chewed on James's boomstick!


The second one is a lot easier to process, though and just extends the general case to the exception. It's also what I encounter far more frequently in texts I read.
The plural case is not really an issue here because a player is a single entity by definition.

Personally I believe that in the age of computing, many languages need some serious sanitizing to eliminate those problematic edge cases that really benefit nobody in the end and where getting rid of them doesn't make the written language any more diluted. Personally, the one I dislike most is Arabic where the same character can look different based on context. It is virtually impossible to do ad-hoc text generation for such a language, a task that despite all discouragement still occurs too frequently when doing software development.