METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

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METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:45 pm

So, for those of you who haven't been following, I've been in talks with Terminus to reboot his abandoned project, Metroid Dreadnought, which was a partial-conversion which added Metroid-Style gameplay to Doom. Mainly, the project takes inspiration from the highest rated title for the Gamecube, Metroid Prime, as well as Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion. This mod manages to capture the feel of Metroid Prime surprisingly well, but is also missing a few key things.

While the original project was intended to simply add features, I plan to expand it to include its own maps and monsters. Right now, Samus is a bit too powerful for vanilla maps and enemies, and her full potential just isn't being met with this stuff. I'd like to take what was a simple Zandronum mod and turn it into something with fan-game potential, and I'd like to get other mappers to start using it.

I'm looking for some help from the community on this one, because there's alot that can be improved upon here, and only so much I'm willing and able to put into it. If anyone is able to give me something from the Planned Features list below, that'd be great. If anyone has the ability to get something in from the Wishlist, that'd be great too.

Showcasing
Screenshots
Early Section of Norion using a somewhat higher-res Visor
Image

Early Section of Norion using a somewhat higher-res Ball
Image

Releases
Metroid Doom version 0.5 - Mod DB
I'm gonna note, this is still 99% Terminus's original project: most of what I've been doing is learning the layout and making experimental alterations to his team's work. He had a team working on this for a couple years, and I don't expect to surpass that anytime soon, but hey, you have to get the ball rolling sometime...

Development
This is an open project, and I'm looking for anyone who'd like to help make it a reality.
Completed Changes
AKA: Stuff that will be in the next update
Spoiler:
Work in Progress
AKA: Stuff that's being worked on right now
Spoiler:


Planned Additions
AKA: things that someone should pick up and work on

Spoiler:


Wishlist
AKA: Things I want but don't think are worth pursuing.
Spoiler:


Not Listed Here
Obviously, we could use some Music files to include into the core release, if anyone wants to give us some that they hold the rights to. Also, people who can refine the existing code would be useful.

Credits
Original Project by Terminus
Last edited by RockstarRaccoon on Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:03 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Jimmy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:54 pm

Your images need to use the [ img ] tag. Posting them in this spoiler:

Spoiler:
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:10 pm

I figured that out. The part of the forum rules post that says how to use the Thumb tag is wrong.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby wildweasel » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:31 pm

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I figured that out. The part of the forum rules post that says how to use the Thumb tag is wrong.

Not so much "wrong" as "potentially unclear" - I've amended the Project Posting Guidelines to fix it so it's a bit clearer what the Thumb tags are actually for.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:45 pm

New goal: Find this guy and get this WAD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31BQsEWeyO8
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Slax » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:45 am

RockstarRaccoon wrote:New goal: Find this guy and get this WAD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31BQsEWeyO8

So basically another closed thread then?
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:50 am

Slax wrote:
RockstarRaccoon wrote:New goal: Find this guy and get this WAD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31BQsEWeyO8

So basically another closed thread then?

Uh... No...? I mean I would really like to incorporate some of his updates, which I think are actually on the list, not abandon this thread...
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Kinsie » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:23 am

It's more that the only thing of substance you've posted is a couple of sprites from the mod fed through a resizing filter with varying results. Everything else has been a sizeable list of "I wish somebody would make this for me" or "I wish I could use this thing somebody else made".

This doesn't mean that it's a bad idea to collaborate and call upon help as you need it, not at all! I do it all the time when I start biting off more than I can chew. But you need to get things rolling on your own first, and unless your mapping or spriting skills are impressive enough to intrigue people away from working on their own projects, that means doing your own coding work to get your ideas into the engine in at least a rough form. There's a fantastic wiki documenting everything in the engine, and the editing subforum is great at answering questions.

Just don't expect people to drop everything and fill out your wish list while you watch. We're pretty friendly, as far as modding communities go, but we don't exactly have much of an appetite for the dreaded "ideas guys". If you want help, you'll have to go knuckle-deep on your own first. In fact, if you're new to modding for the ZDoom family, you might be better off starting with your own, smaller project. Terminus's mods have a lot of convoluted code to deal with engine limitations that don't necessarily exist anymore, and they can be pretty daunting to muck around in even for veterans. Trust me on this!
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:57 am

Actually, I used to be involved with alot of stuff in the Doom community under about 3 different screen names over the years. I haven't been around in a long while, but I DO know what I'm doing and I DO know what it takes: I actually work in media development, and my senior project on my computer science degree (back in 2009) involved reverse engineering the original Doom 2 source code. You don't need to post links to a Wiki I've already been pouring over, or a forum that, if you look at my posting history, I already ask questions on. I'm even the head of the largest World of Darkness fan-project that I know of over on the Onyx Path forums.

I know EXACTLY what I'm doing, despite the wrong impression I've somehow given you.

I know it's odd for people in the community to post a thread with only a week and a half worth of progress. This project is different from the norm: the Doom community is really big on projects where one person does alot of work to raise an idea out of the dust, and some great things come out of that. Right now though, clearly no one has the time or patience for that. Right now, all this project has is a few people like me, picking at it when we feel like it, making minor improvements to the mod, hunting down random additions, working on a map, etc. I know I won't be able to do everything I'd like to here, and eventually I'll just get tired of it like Terminus did and move on to some other project, probably one that pays money. I posted this for people like that guy in the video, because he's like me: he likes the idea of this, and he wants to add things to it, but he isn't willing or able to put in the effort needed to really overhaul this thing.

You are correct, I do not have the time, skill, or probably even interest to actually complete that list... And that is absolutely fine, because neither does anyone else.

This project isn't intended to be one person raising a personal vision out of nothing. This is intended to be a group project where a few people make a few small changes at a time. I put this here because I'd like to improve it, and I don't want our efforts to be divided. For example, I'm not going to work on fixing the morph-ball code because clearly that guy has it working, and I probably just need to ask him to contribute it. I WILL be actively working on things like fixing the graphical issues, bugs, outdated code which litter the PK3, and I WILL be working on the maps I've already started. (I'm waiting to get something cohesively connected before I release them, so it'll probably be a day or two before I do that) I will also be seeking other people who want to add something to this, because I know they are out there, and that's the only way I can see that this is going to get any further.

This is a collaborative effort to add missing features to an abandoned project, not my personal effort to try and achieve a personal vision, and this thread is here so that anyone else who wants to work on it has somewhere to go.

This is a different project than you're all probably used to, and I know that, but this is probably the only thing that will work. So please, stop trying to find reasons for me to give up or fail and start looking for ways you can help. If you're not interested in doing that, then please, just leave. You're just wasting everyone's time and cluttering the thread of a project that people would really like to see go somewhere. I'm not going to waste any more time that I could be spending on this trying to explain to a couple people that I can't make incredible results appear out of nowhere. This is pretty much the main problem in the Doom community which caused me to lose interest years ago and breeds people like Sgt Mark IV: if y'all would spend half the time you do finding ways to tear people down on actually building things, you would be capable of incredible things. Even the goddamn bronies seem to understand that, and I'm pretty sure most of them did not have friends before seeing the show.

In the interest of everyone's time and actually getting things done, I'm going to stop responding to the constant stream of criticism I'm getting from people who don't even know who I am and haven't even seen most of what I'm in the process of doing. Please go work on your own projects if you are not interested in helping with the Metroid one.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Kinsie » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:30 am

Hoo-wee, this is gonna be long even after I cut some stuff out.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:Actually, I used to be involved with alot of stuff in the Doom community under about 3 different screen names over the years.
Why keep changing your identity? Is there something we should know...?

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I actually work in media development, and my senior project on my computer science degree (back in 2009) involved reverse engineering the original Doom 2 source code.
Great! Your post shows no evidence of this.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I know EXACTLY what I'm doing, despite the wrong impression I've somehow given you.
We're getting a wrong impression because all you've really shown us is a list and some sprites fed through a command-line 2xSai filter tool.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:This project is different from the norm: the Doom community is really big on projects where one person does alot of work to raise an idea out of the dust, and some great things come out of that. Right now though, clearly no one has the time or patience for that.
This is the norm because everyone else is working on their own things, and they need to be sufficiently impressed to abandon that to work on something else. This is just how it goes when it comes to hobbyist projects people do in their spare time.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I WILL be actively working on things like fixing the graphical issues, bugs, outdated code which litter the PK3, and I WILL be working on the maps I've already started. (I'm waiting to get something cohesively connected before I release them, so it'll probably be a day or two before I do that)
So why didn't you wait until you had more of that stuff done so you could show it off? When announcing/proposing new projects, especially ones where you want community involvement, you really have to come out of the gate strong. If you want a good example, check out Nevander's recent thread. It's crawling with info, media, lists and even information on the development methodology that all points to one thing - a project in good hands, by someone who knows a thing or two about a thing or two.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:This is a different project than you're all probably used to, and I know that, but this is probably the only thing that will work. So please, stop trying to find reasons for me to give up or fail and start looking for ways you can help. If you're not interested in doing that, then please, just leave. You're just wasting everyone's time and cluttering the thread of a project that people would really like to see go somewhere.
I'm not saying this stuff as some drive-by threadshitter. I am talking about this as somebody who has done pretty what you're trying to do - I resurrected one of Terminus's old mods. I didn't come out of the gate with a big list asking people to do things for me - I waited until I actually had something to show (in this case, an actual release). And by doing that, I was able to get a far better reception.

RockstarRaccoon wrote:if y'all would spend half the time you do finding ways to tear people down on actually building things, you would be capable of incredible things. Even the goddamn bronies seem to understand that, and I'm pretty sure most of them did not have friends before seeing the show.
For one, you haven't actually shown much in the way of evidence of building anything yet. For another, the Doom community is actually pretty nice and non-poisonous without going full-hugbox like some major Elder Scrolls modding sites that explicitly ban criticism. We'll help you and guide you along, but we won't bullshit you.

Citing the cartoon horse people out of nowhere like that is just weird. What do they have to do with the price of tea in China?

RockstarRaccoon wrote:In the interest of everyone's time and actually getting things done, I'm going to stop responding to the constant stream of criticism I'm getting from people who don't even know who I am and haven't even seen most of what I'm in the process of doing. Please go work on your own projects if you are not interested in helping with the Metroid one.
I don't think you'll have to tell them twice, if this is how you respond to honest, reasonable feedback.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby RockstarRaccoon » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:39 am

I actually came back on mention to you... You linking that stuff is actually a good response, and I should be clear that you should keep doing that, because it's a really good way to welcome new people to the community, and we need more of that. I worked with Code Imp on a couple projects, and I know he'd approve of that behavior, and so should I, so I'm sorry if it came across like I was complaining about you.

I'm more just annoyed with the idea of having to ask the mods to delete this thread like the last one because people won't drop it long enough to let me get something out. As I said, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this, and I'd rather spend it getting work done than dealing with the toxic culture of the Doom community...
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby The Zombie Killer » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:51 am

RockstarRaccoon wrote:I'm more just annoyed with the idea of having to ask the mods to delete this thread like the last one because people won't drop it long enough to let me get something out. As I said, I have a limited amount of time to spend on this, and I'd rather spend it getting work done than dealing with the toxic culture of the Doom community...

Then why not do just that? Spend your time working on it until you have something more to show before you make a thread.
Plus uhh, I'm not sure what "toxic culture" you're referring to. People will be ready and willing to help out once you've proven that you're capable of managing a project of this scale.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Slax » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:19 am

Rough and tumbly but here we go.

Let's get literary.
What you're proposing here, Raccoon, is Frankenstein's monster. Chop up a bunch of dead (or alive) bodies/projects, sew the best parts together and just blindly hope it works.

Shady business overall. Thing is, this time it's a sequel. The villagers have seen all of this before. Failed Frankenstein projects all over! It's nothing new.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby wildweasel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:40 am

I agree with Slax and especially Kinsie. We're absolutely not here to shit on your mod. As a moderator especially sensitive to when a thread is getting too hot, I don't really see where the "toxic" allegations are coming from. It's all advice I'm setting here. Maybe it's advice you don't agree with, but I don't see that it's worth deleting the thread over (yet). It might not seem like it, but we do have your project's best interests in mind.
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Re: METROID DOOM - The Galaxy is still doomed...

Postby Scripten » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:49 am

Hey, Raccoon. As you may have guessed from my username, I'm the one who's been working on the other Metroid mod for the past few years. As you may also have noticed, I don't yet have a thread for it (though this may change shortly [/hype]) because while I have almost all of the framework in place, I'm not yet ready to release a minimum viable product. That's usually where I feel that thread creation is appropriate and I think that's what people are saying here. Especially when you're branching from another person's product, it can be tough to really show off what you've done yourself, even if you've put a lot of time into it. Since you have a pretty good idea of the community here, perhaps try sending out some PMs and seeing what people have and what they could contribute before getting too wrapped up in conversation.

I can't speak for WW or any other mods on whether or not you have enough material here to justify the thread, but if such is the case, it might be best to take some time to do some of the networking that you've already showed you are capable of doing. The advice being given here is being given in good faith, I can guarantee. It may be best to take it in stride and concentrate on building your project. After all, the effort -> result ratio of adding features to the mod is much greater than trying to make a case in text here.
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