[Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] v3.1 released (p204)

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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Phredreeke » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:57 pm

Such a statement would be futile. You can't say you're not appeasing the moralists (I'm using this as the least inflammatory word I can think of) while giving them 100% of what they asked for.

Anyway, I must say that I deplore the hate I see towards Rachael over this. She's been level-headed and does not deserve such a harsh treatment.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:13 pm

Phredreeke wrote:Anyway, I must say that I deplore the hate I see towards Rachael over this. She's been level-headed and does not deserve such a harsh treatment.

I agree 100%. Rachael has done superbly.

On a comepletely unrelated note, there's something that confuses me.

Where does this idea that there's some sort of connection between the Randy character in BoA and Marisa Heit?
Other than the identical last name, I see no connection whatsoever, to me they're completely separate entities.
I think more people should realize this. Less friendly fire that way.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby KynikossDragonn » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:44 pm

Zenon wrote:Where does this idea that there's some sort of connection between the Randy character in BoA and Marisa Heit?
Other than the identical last name, I see no connection whatsoever, to me they're completely separate entities.
I think more people should realize this. Less friendly fire that way.


Because Marisa Heit's previous name is Randi Heit, previous as in pre-transition. Hence, it's deadnaming.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:54 pm

KynikossDragonn wrote:Because Marisa Heit's previous name is Randi Heit, previous as in pre-transition. Hence, it's deadnaming.

But if everyone agreed to disassociate the name, there wouldn't be a problem with the name. By making the previous name taboo, you're still giving it a meaning, just a negative one.
If we treat that name as one we've never heard before until now, there'd be a whole lot less conflict.

We should treat Marisa Heit as having always been Marisa Heit, right from the very beginning. For example, Marisa did wonderfully as ZDoom's founder and lead developer for a long time.
Randi Heit is just a Blade of Agony character which bears no connection or resemblance. Nothing more, nothing less.

It might sound crazy, but wouldn't it make more sense to think those who are condemning the Randi Heit character by saying he's a portrayal of Marisa Heit are the ones deadnaming, right?
Because they're associating the name Randi with Marisa.

I'm not trying to troll here, I'm trying to clear up some conflict in the community.
Last edited by Zenon on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:12 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby ravage » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:40 pm

Zenon wrote:
KynikossDragonn wrote:Because Marisa Heit's previous name is Randi Heit, previous as in pre-transition. Hence, it's deadnaming.

But if everyone agreed to disassociate the name, there wouldn't be a problem with the name. By making the previous name taboo, you're still giving it a meaning, just a negative one.
If we treat that name as one we've never heard before until now, there'd be a whole lot less conflict.
Marisa Heit has always been Marisa Heit, right from the very beginning. Marisa did wonderfully as ZDoom's founder and lead developer for a long time.
Randi Heit is just a Blade of Agony character. Nothing more, nothing less.
It might sound crazy, but I think those who are condemning the Randi Heit character by saying he's a portrayal of Marisa Heit are the ones deadnaming, right? Because they're associating the character and the name Randi with Marisa.

Please don't try justifying deadnaming for any reason. If its offensive to Marisa, then its their duty to rectify the situation.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:51 pm

ravage wrote:Please don't try justifying deadnaming for any reason. If its offensive to Marisa, then its their duty to rectify the situation.

I'm not gonna deny that deadnaming can be bad.
I just personally think it's not something worth fighting over in this specific case, and thought up a solution.

I get what you're saying though.
We should wait and see what Marisa says. Like Enjay's case, Marisa might find it inoffensive, and we'd've all been worrying over nothing.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby dawnbreez » Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:29 am

Rachel has been very, very patient with everyone involved, and I have a great deal of respect for her because of it. It takes patience beyond what I'm capable of to handle something like this in such a calm manner.

That having been said: I personally think Tormentor's actions paint him as...well, immature. In the context of past situations where people had criticisms of Torm's work, and what Torm did in response to that--well, this isn't the first time that Tormentor has used Realm667 as a bargaining chip. And seeing Torm try to throw his playtesters under the bus, when Torm is the leader of the project--I was appalled. You don't DO that, especially not to people who have been trying to help you with such a massive project for years.

And about the situation with the "tribute" to Marisa--I agree that we should ask Marisa's opinion of it, but I also think that greater care should've been taken in the first place. It's all well and good to give each other a good-natured roasting, but there's a fine line between good-natured jokes between friends and insults, and the key to staying on the friendly side of that line is to be careful not to cross it. It's also kind of important to pay attention to who you're making fun of, lest you, I don't know, make a joke that isn't socially acceptable within the context of who they are.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Marisa Kirisame » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:11 am

I have to say that I'm partly responsible for this having happened, digging through the files out of curiosity and reporting my findings to others in the community. But I think if it hadn't been me, it could have been anyone else, sooner or later. People get curious, data mining is a very popular thing after all. Still, I appreciate that changes are being made to clean up (including things that apparently weren't meant to be there). Overall, I think many people have been too quick to jump at the throats of the dev team, so I tip my hat to how Rachael has been handling things both here and on the project's GitHub page.

In regards to the "tribute", and as someone who's had to deal with transphobia very often, I still feel icky about Marisa being represented as an ugly, balding, bearded old drunkard. Toilet humor is one thing, but this one comes off as an insult to someone's personal identity.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:19 am

Marisa Kirisame wrote:I still feel icky about Marisa being represented as an ugly, balding, bearded old drunkard. Toilet humor is one thing, but this one comes off as an insult to someone's personal identity.

What if you didn't treat it as a representation of Marisa? I've been encouraging others to do the same, further up the page if you'd like to take a look.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby dawnbreez » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:26 am

Zenon wrote:What if you didn't treat it as a representation of Marisa? I've been encouraging others to do the same, further up the page if you'd like to take a look.


It uses Marisa's dead name, was written and intended to be based on Marisa at a time when she didn't call herself Marisa, and is one of many such "tributes" in Blade of Agony.

I, uh, don't think that argument passes muster.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:32 am

Fair enough.
Here's hoping Marisa looks cool in the next update then.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby ZikShadow » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:36 am

The character's been completely renamed in the current version. He is now Lt. Haggis "Gear" McMutton.
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Marisa Kirisame » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:43 am

Heh, that name couldn't be more stereotypically Scottish even if it tried. :3:
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Zenon » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:45 am

I bet nazis really grind his gears
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Re: [Wolfenstein: Blade of Agony] Release v3 taken down (p20

Postby Enjay » Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:56 am

Clearly a stereotype and an attack on Scots. :p

Yes, I know it's a Monkey Island reference.



Edit: video added (couldn't find a better one unfortunately).
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