[Blade of Agony] New screenshots | p179

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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Enjay » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:12 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Is there any chance to split this map?

To be fair, I think that's a question that could be asked of a number of the BoA maps. Some of them are very big and yet have reasonably clear breaks in pace or story where a map change would seem to be quite logical and therefore not jarring or out of place. I don't think that breaking the maps up into smaller units would hurt gameplay and would almost certainly improve performance on slower systems.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Wiw » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:44 pm

If it'll help, I'm all for it. But can it be done without damaging both maps in the process?
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Tormentor667 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Animation, no. Collision, yes.

That would be awesome then
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Gez » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:22 am

I think for the Astrostein case, a large part of the problem is all those laser shooters that are constantly active. That's why I had suggested splitting it in three maps: spaceship, moon city, and finally boss fight. Performances were so bad that just to make it possibly playable I had to freeze the game. But then it means there was no real fight, since enemies could just be electrocuted to death while they're paralyzed. Still, it was a choice between that and just getting killed right at the beginning by not having enough frames to actually manage to target a single enemy before they killed me, so whatever.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:39 am

I just did a quick mock-up of a NoThink implementation and tried it on this map - sadly it's not even remotely enough to bring performance to a reasonable level.
I'd even go so far and split it into 4 parts, separating the outside from the inside as there's only a single door connecting both parts, although it'd mean sacrificing a bit of what can be seen through a few of the windows. But as things are, there's a banner obstructing one of those windows, so strategically placing that banner so that the outside area can be simplified (i.e. in front of the rightmost of the windows) and there's basically nothing lost, aside from some very, very marginal visual loss (which nobody will really ever notice)

Ultimately it comes down to what is important here: Keeping the thing playable or go for perfect visuals without compromise? I'd always choose the first option. 7 ms think time on a high end computer is far too much. Even 5 ms is too much.

Splitting it seems like the only viable option - and then reducing the amount of performance killers, if Gez is correct.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby jazzmaster9 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:27 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Ultimately it comes down to what is important here: Keeping the thing playable or go for perfect visuals without compromise? I'd always choose the first option. 7 ms think time on a high end computer is far too much. Even 5 ms is too much.

Splitting it seems like the only viable option - and then reducing the amount of performance killers, if Gez is correct.

I second this. As a huge fan of the first release I was dissappointed about the huge performance issues in chapter 2. I couldn't play any of the latest release due to lag caused by the huge levels.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Wiw » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:33 am

I refer back to my previous thought about being able to change between models and sprites for trees.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:29 am

That's not really the bottleneck that's plaguing this mod as it's mainly GPU-dependent, but the actual problems are all on the CPU side.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Chapter 2 released | p140

Postby Wiw » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:18 am

TDG wrote:Eh, well still thinking of ideas to recommend to BOA Chapter 3 or BOA in general but lately all my Wolfenstein-Doom related suggestions involve porting resources from some of the Wolfenstein 3D mods such as the cyborg soldiers from mods such as Coming of the Storm/Project Eisenritter (improved versions of Schabb's mutants)
I still feel that BOA after Chapter 2 that focused a lot on the Nazi's superweapon projects involving robots and mech suits that Chapter 3 should perhaps be more focused on the supernatural projects the Nazis were conducting.
The mutants, robots, and mechs can still make appearances like they did before, but now we would perhaps see more supernatural enemies the Nazi occultists, mystics, and scientists have been summoning or creating.
Has Dr Quarkblitz made an appearance yet?


Got it! BJ fights a Nazi version of himself engineered by Thor's Hammer!
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby Tormentor667 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:41 am

Better gameplay? We want that as well!
Dear ZDoomers, we are currently investigating how the gameplay aspect of Blade of Agony could be improved. To actually find the right approach, we need your help - not only by playing the first two chapters but also by thinking about ideas what could be added or what could be changed to improve the gameplay aspects. It's not that you need a perfect solution to reply but maybe some idea about what you would have expected and instead what you've got provided from the maps.
  • What gameplay aspects did you like?
  • What gameply aspects where frustrating?
  • What would you like to see in an improved version of chapter 1 and 2?
  • What would you like to see in an all new chapter 3?
  • What will most likely make you use cheats or the console commands because of that?
The more detailed the examples about things you like/didn't like are the better. Maybe even map numbers and coords with an explanation could be something we'd love if you'd share them, as it makes it easier to understand what situation failed, what situaton was good and which situation needs further work.

Thanks kindly for your support,
best regards,
Dan & team
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby Zan » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:41 am

What gameplay aspects did you like?
Mainly what Chapter 2 involved, especially having enough ammo to actually kill the opposition without too much trouble/conservation.
Also, non linear/sprawling level design did a LOT to improve the gameplay.


What gameply aspects where frustrating?
1)Scarce ammo in Chapter 1 forcing you to use pistols a lot and making the gameplay less fluid and satisfying. Also lack of arena-shooter like weapons (like the auto rocket launcher from Chapter 2, or having too little ammo for the flame thrower).
2)The invisible machine gun nests scattered at the edge of the map (like in that mission where you had to blow up the AA cannons) forcing you to move in cover were pretty annoying as well, that's something modern shooters do all the time so I'd get rid of it like the plague.
3)Invisible walls. For example in areas like the Dam (Chapter 1) - the part where you'd see Ryan (I think that's his name). You couldn't jump in the water below because of invisible walls.
4)Platforming. But that's just me and a bunch of other people, it's not really an objectively bad thing.


What would you like to see in an improved version of chapter 1 and 2?
Don't think I'd change much at this point, I think it's more important to finish Chapter 3 and then see about it. Regarding Chapter 2, it's pretty much as good as it can get if you ask me.
I'd definitely like to see more weapons, especially Stg44 and MG42.
Also, perhaps you could change the name of the flamethrower weapon to "Flammenwerfer" for extra meme credit :D


What would you like to see in an all new chapter 3?
Keep up the stunning level design and gameplay from Chapter 2, there's really not much more you can do to it. Perhaps avoid levels centered around labyrinth-like bunkers. Perhaps more missions like the one where you had to kill the two generals and one of them would escape at the end. That was probably my favorite.


What will most likely make you use cheats or the console commands because of that?
The platforming, especially that one with the wind and the purple pool you'd risk falling into (in Chapter 2). Also the platforming with traps from the final mission of Chapter 1. But again, it's just me not being a huge fan of complex platforming (not saying you did a bad job or anything, hell, you might as well keep at it).
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby TDG » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:22 am

I had to use a cheat in order to defeat the tanks in Chapter 2 but that was more of the slowdown I experienced. I have no idea how the battle would have played out if it had run better.

The moment I emerged from the villa or building were one faces a boss I was immediately under attack. Actually I was already under attack before I even emerged from the building.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby Toyoch » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:54 am

-What gameplay aspects did you like?
Secret hunting : Generally fun and satisfying with the Key and Chest combo plus golds for upgrades.
Stealth in chapter 2 : While it's kind of abusable, I'm a hardcore stealth gamer and loved that.
Changes with Astrostein assets : I did play the original wad and I was surprised at how weapons and enemies were done in BoA.

-What gameplay aspects where frustrating?
Weapons dropping at random chance : I had to go through the Astrostein level WITHOUT THE PISTOL because nobody dropped it(maybe I missed it, if you placed one somewhere). Also, having to rely on luck for enemies dropping MP40s and Kar-98Ks makes runs harder in most runs, at least for me.
Invisible MG Nests in some parts of the levels : I know there are always way around them, but you still have to run past few of them.
Stamina is too low : I think the health booster(the one you can buy from the shop) could increase stamina cap as well.
Invisible and (mostly) indestructible landmines : I am fine with ones you can find them with detector, or you can identify them with the difference on terrains. But they usually forced me to fly or iddqd over them.

-What would you like to see in an improved version of chapter 1 and 2?
The platforming part could've done better, especially that lava area in chapter 1 and the final areas in chapter 2.

-What would you like to see in an all new chapter 3?
How about a huge mission with 2-3 moderately-sized maps interconnected(think of a mini-hub)? I think that's viable for an endgame mission.
I'd love to see more interesting weapons, both historical and fictional ones.

-What will most likely make you use cheats or the console commands because of that?
Landmines : explained in "frustrating aspect" part above.
Space Suit walking in Astrostein : I can understand it's not really sensible to be able to "carry" multiple suits as inventory items, but it sucks to have the suit depleted in the long walk. I had to iddqd through it.
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby Wiw » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:41 am

Well... for starters, I'd make it so that enemies drop what weapons they're shown holding. If they're holding an MP-40, they should drop an MP-40!
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Re: [Blade of Agony] Gameplay survey, please participate | p

Postby Koto » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:42 am

  • What gameplay aspects did you like?
Ch.1: Training area specially feels great for novices & reminds me to MOHAA, what is good for me.
Ch.2: As a Stealth games fan, I think it's very well implemented.
General: It's a nice experience with a lot of pop culture references and easter eggs. I also liked the new changes that the TC has experienced along the dev process.


  • What gameplay aspects where frustrating?
Previously I posted about the case of "Misleading advertising" with the 7.92mm clip, but It seems that you solved it.
Some Astrostein enemies still have the same problem with the original TC. Specifically the cyborgs that die and unblock your pass but blocks your view.


  • What would you like to see in an improved version of chapter 1 and 2?
Ammo droping based on enemy carrying. Ex.: If an enemy has a Luger with 8 rounds and he used 2 before I kill him, it must drop the Luger (or the magazine) with 6 rounds.
(Optional) Some option to toggle models into sprites, like in D4D. I don't have problems on my PC now with all the improvements you did, but playing on my Laptop still suffer some frame drops, even lowering the amount of models & particles.
Wave based enemy spawn (C1M5). It's very difficult to survive the whole battalion even mounted in the turret.


  • What would you like to see in an all new chapter 3?
Missions set in asia-pacific. Specifically in Japan, with Blazko struggling against japanese axis, the unit 731 & some fictional creations like enemies and weapons.
I would also like to suggest some battles against italian forces.


  • What will most likely make you use cheats or the console commands because of that?
Just like other people here. Indestructible landmines (until you touch one of them), platformer sections (Specially when I'm reaching the final segment and a bad landing sends me back to zero).
And as a personal experience, the Nebelwerfer defense section (C1M5) gave me some headaches dying repeatedly, so apply iddqd to pass.
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