Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Gez » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:31 am

Look if you care that much about it, it's not hard to edit the weapon definition file to remove the Weapon.AmmoType and Weapon.AmmoUse lines.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby MaxRideWizardLord » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:42 am

Gez wrote:Look if you care that much about it, it's not hard to edit the weapon definition file to remove the Weapon.AmmoType and Weapon.AmmoUse lines.


Isn't that would be a cheat that is not approved and\or intended by the mod developer? I was just asking for the original file, I hope someone still have that saved somewhere around. It just felt more... balanced and compact, to say.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:55 am

While the sapphire wand does use ammo, I did recently add a weapon that doesn't, though it's not in any of the maps yet. Type in "summon totem" to use it. It uses no ammo and has a nifty alt-fire.

As for the original file, it should still be available.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby neoworm » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:43 pm

I got to play the newest version and it's even better than before. I hope I will be able to finish it during the week. I play as a mage right now but I tried the new weapons of other classes and saw that most of fighter weapons are not widescreen friendly. Especially the gauntlets. I've made widescreen versions of, I hope, everything that needed widescreen version in HeXen here: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=59917 feel free to use whatever you need.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:43 pm

I have been meaning to do that one of these days, but fixing the more egregious bugs was more important. The fighter does have the most weapons that aren't, but the cleric's mace and firestorm also has widescreen issues. The mage does too, but that one is easy to fix.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3 for GZDoom - Now Widescreen Compatible

Postby Ichor » Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:39 am

After a few hours of work, I have managed to make all weapons and the hud widescreen compatible. It wasn't as easy as I first thought, though those widescreen graphics did help a lot. Still, I did have to touch up some of them to make them look better, and some weapons had an alt-fire or powered up version that needed some new graphics (i.e. the red axe). It all worked out in the end, and the hud looks good as well. Those wings did need to be extended a bit though, since they looked like they were cut off abruptly. Also, since all I changed were the graphics, it shouldn't interfere with your savegames.

Download is the same link as before.

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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:55 pm

Reuploaded to fix a glitch in map 3.

Protip: Make sure there's no other lines that can trigger a script other than the one you want.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Caleb26 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:08 pm

Hi. How's chapter 3 going? I'm dying to see more quality maps like the ones from chapter 1 and 2. I'm glad you're still working on it. The story needs to be continued.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:37 pm

I'm about halfway done with hub 3. It would have been done sooner (like many years sooner) but real life issues got in the way. This is probably the hardest of the hubs to do since it's mostly all going to be contained in one large city. Here's another screenshot:

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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby John Stalvern » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:35 am

Hey Ichor, I've been following this project for years hoping it would eventually be finished. This is awesome news. I remember using console commands to check out the unfinished City of Korax when it was included in previous versions. I loved the idea of a hostile civilized area, in which you can move around, shop, visit institutions, etc., all while trying to survive. I'm really looking forward to playing the finished version : )
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby MaxRideWizardLord » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:02 pm

The totem looks fun to use, but it feels like it won't be anywhere near first map, seein it's power is not that weak. I know it's your mod but it just doesn't feel right at all for saphire wand to drain mana. Severely nerf it but make it function like in original HeXen or like in original Carnage Galore 3 and it would make sense to use it again.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:00 pm

Yeah, the Totem, Redeemer, and VorpalBlade will likely be in the latter half of hub 3, and none of those will use mana. The Staff of D'Sparil will also be there if you missed it in hub 2. As for why I moved the sapphire wand in the first place, it was because I thought it was much too weak in Hexen. Sure, it was fun to use, but not against those centaurs or against hoardes of ettins. I wanted to make it not like the pistol from Doom, where once you find a better weapon, it would almost never be used again except for sniping from far away or conserving ammo where it's scarce (i.e. Traductus' Tomb). But besides that, another reason why is because I had given each class the means to drain life or mana with their slot 1 weapon using the tome of power. In the beginning, the mage used the frost shards for that (it was the only one that really made sense because that was his only melee attack), but I didn't think that was right for the other classes to have that for slot 1 weapons, and the mage had to use the slot 2 weapon for it, which meant the mage had to use blue mana to do it. I wanted to balance all of the classes while still trying to maintain their uniqeness.

Now as for those three new weapons, I got the idea to add them because someone mentioned a while ago that the fighter didn't have enough melee weapons, and I wanted to add something that would add to their roles. Also, slot 1 only had one weapon in it. The vorpal blade was the easiest to do because I had done something similar in AEoD. It doesn't work like you've seen in other mods. It collects a charge by hitting enemies with blood (so it won't work against wendigos). When you have enough, you can use it to give yourself a boost in speed and power for a short time. You could use it early on for a quick boost or take longer to build it to maximum to unleash considerable damage. The totem staff is a bit similar, except instead of boosting you, it frightens the enemies, and using it at maximum power will sow some serious chaos. The redeemer's hand is probably the most unique weapon in the game. Kill enemies with it to collect souls. Then you can use them to explode corpses. (you have no idea how long I've been wanting to do this in ZDoom). It works just like it does in Diablo 2. The bigger and more health the enemy had while it was alive, the wider and stronger the explosion will be.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby MaxRideWizardLord » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Ichor wrote:Yeah, the Totem, Redeemer, and VorpalBlade will likely be in the latter half of hub 3, and none of those will use mana. The Staff of D'Sparil will also be there if you missed it in hub 2. As for why I moved the sapphire wand in the first place, it was because I thought it was much too weak in Hexen. Sure, it was fun to use, but not against those centaurs or against hoardes of ettins. I wanted to make it not like the pistol from Doom, where once you find a better weapon, it would almost never be used again except for sniping from far away or conserving ammo where it's scarce (i.e. Traductus' Tomb). But besides that, another reason why is because I had given each class the means to drain life or mana with their slot 1 weapon using the tome of power. In the beginning, the mage used the frost shards for that (it was the only one that really made sense because that was his only melee attack), but I didn't think that was right for the other classes to have that for slot 1 weapons, and the mage had to use the slot 2 weapon for it, which meant the mage had to use blue mana to do it. I wanted to balance all of the classes while still trying to maintain their uniqeness.

Now as for those three new weapons, I got the idea to add them because someone mentioned a while ago that the fighter didn't have enough melee weapons, and I wanted to add something that would add to their roles. Also, slot 1 only had one weapon in it. The vorpal blade was the easiest to do because I had done something similar in AEoD. It doesn't work like you've seen in other mods. It collects a charge by hitting enemies with blood (so it won't work against wendigos). When you have enough, you can use it to give yourself a boost in speed and power for a short time. You could use it early on for a quick boost or take longer to build it to maximum to unleash considerable damage. The totem staff is a bit similar, except instead of boosting you, it frightens the enemies, and using it at maximum power will sow some serious chaos. The redeemer's hand is probably the most unique weapon in the game. Kill enemies with it to collect souls. Then you can use them to explode corpses. (you have no idea how long I've been wanting to do this in ZDoom). It works just like it does in Diablo 2. The bigger and more health the enemy had while it was alive, the wider and stronger the explosion will be.


I'm pretty sure that the true useless weapon in the whole of Hexen was ice sharps. Not only that bastard eat non-proportional amount of mana for crappy damage, worst dps, inconstant awful spread which made it even more useless at range, but also freeze enemies which prevented you from hitting the rest of enemies. Pretty much all of the Mage's arsenal of original HeXen is weakest in comparison to the rest of classes, but sapphire wand is a solid compensation for it. It might be weakest in damage, but it did hit multiple enemies, effective at any range, and could inflict pain to enemies which slow them down. I have no idea how it's even possible to form such a view on things, but using the sapphire wand against LOTS of centaurs and hordes of ettins at the same time is what made the HeXen combat experience so fun, possibly even the best selling point of it, and even the damage and animation felt so smooth that is what made it so enjoyeble to use it. Hiting hordes of ettins with wand felt very satisfying, especially when in one shot you kill multiple of them, the projectile pierce through them all and it feels like it's hot knife going through butter, and hitting centaurs that usually in front of ettins, creates a block, which prevent ettins get close to you, and also blocks any incoming projectiles from that way back to enemies, so you could use them strategically. I guess we are different there, I give you that.

I think it's not a good idea to ruin the class's main aspect of what makes it unique and fun to play in exchange just for mere subjective view on how to make it look "balanced". Being independent from physical world and it's finite resources, yet never having the need to get close to unworthy filthy enemies that do not deserve your clemency to get anywhere near them, is imho, the main and solid reason what makes the Mage, a Mage. To be honest, in current version of Carnage Galore 3, the cleric still feels incredible overpowered and overall better mage than mage itself, and his guns were like designed to clean the whole maps by clicking fire buttons a few times without needing too much of a effort, but I don't care about balance in a singleplayer game that much as long as if certain classes are just fun to play as. Sapphire wand maybe was weak in comparison to other weapons in original HeXen, including of slot 1, but it was powerful enough to beat the whole game using only it even on hardest difficulty.

TL;DR: just because sapphire wand had weak damage per shot, doesn't mean it was useless or weak in general. The mere fact that it didn't use ammo was the primary reason why it was so enjoyeble and favorable to use in first place. Nerf it damage, make it fire slower, I don't care, but please give it back what it made so great in first place. Even with buffed damage, just by the mere fact that you're now forced to care about how much you can fire as it now constantly drains your mana, you'd almost never use it but will rather use anything else of the rest of weapons as they tend not only do higher dps\damage, but have better mana-damage correlation. At least primary fire shouldn't use ammo at all, imho. If you have different view on this, I guess I'll see if I can bring the original sapphire wand primary fire to your sapphire wand, and maybe make the enhanced primary fire by tome of power also do not use any ammo too.
Last edited by MaxRideWizardLord on Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:55 pm

Hmm...primary fire not using mana, but alt-fire would. I might do some experiments on that one and see how it goes.
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Re: Carnage Galore 3, now for GZDoom - beta (update)

Postby Ichor » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:58 pm

I have decided to make the primary fire of the wand use no ammo, but the alt-fire is unchanged. The powered form is the same way (primary uses no ammo but the alt-fire does). The primary fire shots do somewhat less damage and are a little smaller in size.

There was another reason why I did this besides this discussion here. When I was playing through as the mage and I was using the sapphire wand, I found myself using the alt-fire quite frequently, maybe even exclusively. There was no real incentive to use the primary fire when the alt-fire is just a 3-shot barrage that can overwhelm a centaur's defense and make short work of many low level enemies. I've been meaning to do something about that, but I never got around to it until now. I decided to give the player more of a reason to use the primary fire while leaving the rest of the weapon alone. Also, if you are out of mana (whether you're using the tome of power or not), it will default to the single unpowered shot.

Download link is the same as before.
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