Transfer heights w/translucent flats

solarsnowfall · Post by **solarsnowfall** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:23 am

Similar in effect to stacked sectors. Dunno if that's what makes them so unstable, but I wanted to see if, and why this idea gets shot down.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:34 am

Can't be done with a software renderer. Only one section of a transfer_heights sector gets rendered so there's nothing beyond the translucent plane.

If it was that simple...

solarsnowfall · Post by **solarsnowfall** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:36 am

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:35 pm

You say it can't be done with Dooms current software renderer... so what about re-writing doom's software renderer to be better and allow for such tricks?

solarsnowfall · Post by **solarsnowfall** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:48 pm

Sounds like the potential for a lot of work to me. But then again, how would I know???

It sounds like it would go better as "If stacked sectors can be made to work better, would translucent/pass-through effects be possible?"

Nmn · Post by **Nmn** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:05 pm

Lexus Alyus wrote:You say it can't be done with Dooms current software renderer... so what about re-writing doom's software renderer to be better and allow for such tricks?

Programmers say NO for some reason

I presume it's too much work

solarsnowfall · Post by **solarsnowfall** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:20 pm

Nmn: Echoed.

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:28 pm

Lexus Alyus wrote:You say it can't be done with Dooms current software renderer... so what about re-writing doom's software renderer to be better and allow for such tricks?

For software rendering the 'no' has the same reason as 'no' for 3D floors.

For hardware rendering, translucent 3D floors are better. They achieve the same thing while giving you more control. I won't extend the hack for this.

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:46 am

Hold on, people say that its complex to re-write the code for dooms renderer, but aren't people who do GL ports basically doing this? What about forgetting about a software renderer and just doing a software renderer in hardware? How does Quake and Legacy work... Legacy manages to do a lot of things in software mode...

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:08 pm

Legacy only manages to produce bugs in software mode. Yes, it has 3D- floors but the code is far from perfect and is based on a much simpler rendering engine than ZDoom has.

Quake just emulates the same algorithms used by graphics cards, i.e textured polygons and z-buffer.

As for Transfer_Heights, the special is based on the idea that it alters the sector's properties during rendering. Forcing this to change is not easy - and if there's an alternative there's really no need to do so.

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:46 am

Wouldn't it be worth the time to sort out the Doom renderer so it can produce good resaults in software mode?

I'm curious to know why Quake 2 can't produce coloureed light in Software mode...

What about software emulated hardware mode?

People just complain about Doom not looking like Doom in hardware ports because it has mipmapping and bi/tr-linniar filtering... and whatever else hardware mode has... So, if you emulate software mode in hardware then people can't complain... unless they own an old video card that can't render harware modes...

Post by **Graf Zahl** » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:20 am

Lexus Alyus wrote:Wouldn't it be worth the time to sort out the Doom renderer so it can produce good resaults in software mode?

I'm curious to know why Quake 2 can't produce coloureed light in Software mode...

It can't. Software mode had white light only. The lights in Quake2 were light maps specifically calculated for the geometry so rendering them wasn't more than blending 2 textures. There was rather little calculation overhead.[/quote]

What about software emulated hardware mode?

People just complain about Doom not looking like Doom in hardware ports because it has mipmapping and bi/tr-linniar filtering... and whatever else hardware mode has... So, if you emulate software mode in hardware then people can't complain... unless they own an old video card that can't render harware modes...
[/quote]

Of course such features are switchable. But filtered textures are one of the major reasons why I like OpenGL so I wouldn't ever do it. And for users of old graphics cards there's still the software renderer. But to be honest, how many users own less than a Riva TNT/Voodoo 3 today?

[/quote]

Tormentor667 · Post by **Tormentor667** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:24 am

I don't understand why we can't combine the effects of stacked sectors and transfer heights. I know how both of them work, the stacked sectors thing is more like a "enhanced skybox" and the transfer heights has already been explained in this thread before. So why can't we just use the stacked sectors effect in all its beauty and add a "teleport if eyes go below above fake floor" hardcoded effect?

Lexus Alyus · Post by **Lexus Alyus** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:00 pm

That would work... that's how Blood and Shadow Warrior did it. But lets be honest, its just more and more hacks... why bother hacking around things when you can do them properly? Its just messy really...

Post by **Bio Hazard** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:10 pm

I always thought the problem was sprite clipping. I remember there being a wad that showed up when portals were new that used transfer_heights to make a table.