[Maybe later] DMAPINFO support

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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Arctangent » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:15 pm

In other words, it's not about blaming devs for starting their own projects with their hobby time instead of contributing to someone else's, but instead blaming devs for starting their own projects with their hobby time instead of contributing to someone else's, except with a extra dash of passive-aggressiveness?

I'm not wholly convinced that that's anywhere close to an improvement, if I'm being honest. Especially since the whole reason why Graf doesn't have the time to lead the charge because ... he'd much rather spend his hobby time on his own project.

Really not sure why this is a consistent spot of ??? here when it's just ... they're doing what he's doing. Putting effort towards the greater community is nice and all, but it's all ultimately people doing what they enjoy for the sole sake of enjoying it. Ain't gonna get any biters by painting their passion projects as a waste of time, that's for sure.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:22 pm

Graf DID found some time to do some work on PrBoom+, even though he is not in "retro" scene. dunno why you weren't noticed that.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby 3saster » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:32 pm

I think Graf is complaining more that many of these retro port authors will fork a port just to add one feature they wanted. As a result, you end up with lots of feature additions spread across dozens of ports that no one uses. I believe Graf is suggesting these efforts might be better spent working together to add these features to a major port if they want someone other than themselves to enjoy that feature. Of course, the problem with that in the "retro" ports is that no one can agree on what is and isn't okay, so everyone ends up forking them and the projects fall away into obscurity.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:57 pm

3saster wrote:I think Graf is complaining more that many of these retro port authors will fork a port just to add one feature they wanted. As a result, you end up with lots of feature additions spread across dozens of ports that no one uses. I believe Graf is suggesting these efforts might be better spent working together to add these features to a major port if they want someone other than themselves to enjoy that feature. Of course, the problem with that in the "retro" ports is that no one can agree on what is and isn't okay, so everyone ends up forking them and the projects fall away into obscurity.

This is pretty much it, really. In the end, the effort is merely self-gratifying and who knows how much of even that at that.

We have Chocolate Doom and it serves its role - so let's just leave that one as-is for now. The first fork that comes to mind is Crispy Doom. What if Crispy took features from all its various forks, and included them under one big umbrella, for a more unified vanilla-lite port with some extra flavor? I think that's what Graf really is aiming for - rather than everyone splintering off and doing their own thing, only to be forgotten about - and, shamefully, their effort ultimately being wasted due to that inevitable obscurity.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Arctangent » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:18 pm

I feel like you are massively overestimating how much these ports are motivated by some sense of becoming the next new standard or big thing in the community or whatever, and subsequently overlooking how much they're just some nerds deciding to flex their C skills or having some ideas that they feel like they know how to implement. Sure, it's pretty clear that they want to show them off if they post them somewhere, but it's pretty typical human nature to go "I made a thing!" after making a thing.

Obscurity'll sting regardless, but how exactly will it waste effort spent out of passion or self-improvement? Hell, narrow niches tend to have the most devoted fans, anyway.

ketmar wrote:Graf DID found some time to do some work on PrBoom+, even though he is not in "retro" scene. dunno why you weren't noticed that.

I am fully aware. It doesn't change the fact that before he actually finished it up, he decided he wasn't getting enough out of the effort and went back to focusing on something he actually enjoyed working on.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:14 am

Rachael wrote:We have Chocolate Doom and it serves its role - so let's just leave that one as-is for now. The first fork that comes to mind is Crispy Doom. What if Crispy took features from all its various forks, and included them under one big umbrella, for a more unified vanilla-lite port with some extra flavor?


Very much that. Fun or enjoyment nonwithstanding, it's all extremely inefficient and wasteful, but also inevitable because all these projects have such a narrow vision.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:26 am

Rachael wrote:We have Chocolate Doom and it serves its role - so let's just leave that one as-is for now. The first fork that comes to mind is Crispy Doom. What if Crispy took features from all its various forks, and included them under one big umbrella, for a more unified vanilla-lite port with some extra flavor?


Very much that. Fun or enjoyment nonwithstanding, it's all extremely inefficient and wasteful, but also inevitable because all these projects have such a narrow vision. But who doesn't benefit from this mindset is the community at large.

Arctangent wrote:
ketmar wrote:Graf DID found some time to do some work on PrBoom+, even though he is not in "retro" scene. dunno why you weren't noticed that.

I am fully aware. It doesn't change the fact that before he actually finished it up, he decided he wasn't getting enough out of the effort and went back to focusing on something he actually enjoyed working on.


Yes, but the reason was that with one exception absolutely nobody showed any interest in participating, except for some armchair developers who were more interested in injecting their own view of things, like that entire idiotic C/C++ debate. That one exception was Fabian Greffrath, but even his contributions were more or less superficial.
And here's the catch: This is supposed to be a project that's made for the community. But that community, to a large degree, apparently doesn't want any progress here, clearly proven by being more concerned with scenarios that putting UMAPINFO into a mod may compromise demo playback on non-aupporting ports than by seeing potential benefits.
Hardly a combination that's motivating.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:39 am

the thing is that you can't please speedrunning community with features, the only thing they care about is demo compatibility, and they will talk about that to death. most other people using PrBoom+ as their primary port don't care about features too (otherwise they'd move to some advanced sourceport). so probably the only thing you can do with PrBoom+ is change nothing. ;-) maybe make code 64-bit clean, but that's all. not the most interesting thing to do.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:52 am

You are mostly correct here. That's precisely why I haven't gone beyond the MAPINFO thing yet - by all accounts this should be something both mappers and users should appreciate - and I'm convinced that this will happen if we get over that incredible bulge of inertia that's keeping users on the original PrBoom+.

For that the engine needs some technical improvements, like fixing the sound system, which is on my list.
Thinking about it, the thing that keeps me from using the engine more is the hopelessly broken frame interpolation - the one thing I don't ever get out of it is smooth gameplay, maybe if THAT can be fixed, more people will switch.
However, once people start using this fork, some carefully measured feature expansion is feasible, but not really before that. Presenting the port as a feature port is definitely not going to work.

So, the two things I mentioned, i.e. sound and frame interpolation is definitely where work should be invested - not making Hexen format maps work, for example.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Teddipetzi » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:33 am

Retro things can be weird sometimes with people having such differing views of which parts need to be preserved and which don't. This isn't restricted to games alone, it can be found everywhere. And it surely can be aggravating if people get so locked into their own view of things that they lose sight of the bigger picture. What happens here seems to be a strong sign of just that.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Redneckerz » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:15 pm

Arctangent wrote:
Really not sure why this is a consistent spot of ??? here when it's just ... they're doing what he's doing. Putting effort towards the greater community is nice and all, but it's all ultimately people doing what they enjoy for the sole sake of enjoying it. Ain't gonna get any biters by painting their passion projects as a waste of time, that's for sure.

Pretty much. If you want others to limit their times on their own personal pet projects and do so with a posture of ridicule, it makes little sense that they should do so on your own personal pet project. If i had a small port going on and i was painted as just wasting my time and i should start investing my personal efforts into something else - and that just so happens to be the personal prestige project of someone else - then i would be rather inclined to do so. Something about tones and setting the music and so forth. :lol:

3saster wrote:I think Graf is complaining more that many of these retro port authors will fork a port just to add one feature they wanted. As a result, you end up with lots of feature additions spread across dozens of ports that no one uses. I believe Graf is suggesting these efforts might be better spent working together to add these features to a major port if they want someone other than themselves to enjoy that feature. Of course, the problem with that in the "retro" ports is that no one can agree on what is and isn't okay, so everyone ends up forking them and the projects fall away into obscurity.

But this is also true. A proper port has to have some significant new or odd stuff it does. Something like ZDoomGLV2's ''shader'' system, essentially a Doom variant on Quake 3's ''shader'' system, now that's odd and interesting to have, disregarding its usefulness.

Its why i'd dislike calling something like WinMBF64 a proper source port, since the only thing it does be 64 bit aware. There is nothing that couldn't be done in a pull request. (Tho, in WinMBF's case, i can understand why you would go solo. :wink:)

Something like EDGE may not be popular, but it is significant because it paved its own road to recognition. That's how source ports should go with. And if not, add significant work that is omnipresent in most ports and build from there. But just to add one relatively small feature, i am not so sure. Unless its a novelty port like Doom-UEFI.

Teddipetzi wrote:Retro things can be weird sometimes with people having such differing views of which parts need to be preserved and which don't. This isn't restricted to games alone, it can be found everywhere. And it surely can be aggravating if people get so locked into their own view of things that they lose sight of the bigger picture. What happens here seems to be a strong sign of just that.

Okay, ill bite.

That seems awfully specific, but you are speaking in general. Why's that?
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:30 pm

Redneckerz wrote:But this is also true. A proper port has to have some significant new or odd stuff it does. Something like ZDoomGLV2's ''shader'' system, essentially a Doom variant on Quake 3's ''shader'' system, now that's odd and interesting to have, disregarding its usefulness.


No, actually not. A new port, first and foremost needs to have a purpose. It needs to bring some value to the table. Some ports which only focus on a single thing will not get far if tha thing they are about is not compelling, and it's here where most fail. And endless slate of "Hey, I forked Chocolate Doom to do xyz" ports serve no purpose and will most likely just cannibalize each other, but that's exactly the retro territory right now - a bunch of people essentially trying stuff out and see what sticks. Of course the outcome is inevitable: Nothing will stick. I even find it amazing that the first two of these ports managed to survive - but that's as far as it gets. Even the retro community cannot handle more, and in particular more specialized fragmentation.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Arctangent » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:52 am

man that sort of thinking is why kids have such severe anxiety these days

i mean it's one of the many reasons why kids have such severe anxiety these days but it's still one of the more prominent ones, which is pretty telling considering it has to compete with "growing up into a potential mass extinction event"
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:05 pm

Arctangent wrote:man that sort of thinking is why kids have such severe anxiety these days

i mean it's one of the many reasons why kids have such severe anxiety these days but it's still one of the more prominent ones, which is pretty telling considering it has to compete with "growing up into a potential mass extinction event"



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