[Maybe later] DMAPINFO support

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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:35 am

>Imagine what could be possible if some people took their personal stake a bit back
>and did something for the community as a whole instead - at least part of the time.

that's where i cannot agree. all those projects have different goals, different mindsets, even different styles. most people don't want to do what other people think is "right", so it will only bring tension and endless arguing about what feature should be included, what isn't, how exactly, and so on.

yeah, people may allocate some time to work on something like "union engine", but it won't be fun anymore. and while it is free, it should be fun, or people will run away sooner or later (sooner, i bet).

of course, in the world where we'll have infinite time and resources, we can collaborate on side-projects. but in our current reality we have too little time for our hobbies, and cutting it even more won't make it.

sure, The Great Collaboration can do wonders. but we have to live in Wonderland (and not the twisted one Alice seen ;-) to make that happen.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:27 am

Well - I have a hard time believing that those people are blind to the fact that there's dozens upon dozens of retro ports all competing for the same tiny sliver of what user share prefers a GZDoom alternative for any given reason.

Now - don't get me wrong - I see where you are coming from. If you honestly think me, phantom, Graf, dpJudas, drfrag, and mental all agree with each other 110% of the time and just magically get along well, I have a bridge to sell you. We've all had our fights, our differences, and have even come close to tearing off from each other at times. We each have different ideas about what GZDoom's defaults should be - everything from the default keybind setup to whether or not texture filtering should even be turned on by default.

I think honestly though, we'd rather put our differences aside - we can, after all, fork GZDoom and make our own with our own visions if we really want to. But there's no need to. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. We agree when we think the other is right. None of us do that blind loyalty garbage.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:48 am

i am coming from the obscure sourceport which was effectively dead for almost a decade. ;-) and there were reasons why i picked it up instead of joining GZDoom. and i know that k8vavoom won't get even a share of GZDoom popularity. does it mean that i should drop k8vavoom, and join GZDoom instead?

what i really meant is that such "collaborative effort" won't have a common ground, and that will inevitably lead to fights. and it is quite easy to see that there is no such ground, because otherwise we'd already had such collaborative project. this is not a question of loyality, it is a question of common vision, and passion. there are no such things for PrBoom, so people unlikely to collaborate.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:03 am

ketmar wrote:i am coming from the obscure sourceport which was effectively dead for almost a decade. ;-) and there were reasons why i picked it up instead of joining GZDoom. and i know that k8vavoom won't get even a share of GZDoom popularity. does it mean that i should drop k8vavoom, and join GZDoom instead?


That really depends what you want to achieve. It's not just about being able to do the things you want but also to share the work with others. It's a completely different situation if you got to deal with every detail of your engine or if you can sometimes say "Nah, let someone else deal with this".

But for some reason this lone-fighter mentality seems to be strong here, everybody wants to do their own thing and not accept any kind of compromise. Some projects may be worth it, but others certainly are not. There's also the bigger picture to consider: If PrBoom falls into disrepair, this could have devastating consequences for the future of Doom, so it's really a shame that none of the other developers shows any sign of interest to bring the project forward.
Even for the work I did I got the kind of criticism that shows a total disregard for the work being done - most prominently, "how do you dare adding C++ code to this supposedly pure code base". Some people are really more concerned with the technicalities than with the future prospects of an actively maintained and moderately expanding baseline engine.

ketmar wrote:what i really meant is that such "collaborative effort" won't have a common ground, and that will inevitably lead to fights. and it is quite easy to see that there is no such ground, because otherwise we'd already had such collaborative project. this is not a question of loyality, it is a question of common vision, and passion. there is no such things for PrBoom, so people unlikely to collaborate.


You have two choices: compromise or die fighting alone. The second way you always lose, but you may have kept your honor. You'd just not be able to profit from having kept your honor. Had I developed GZDoom like that it wouldn't exist anymore.
How do you think UDMF came to be? This would never have worked out if everybody had stubbornly stuck to their own principles.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:04 am

K8vavoom is definitely exempt from this because it's anything but "retro" - it's actually one of the more advanced ports, like Eternity.

However - I think you're entirely wrong about that with the retro crowd. That itself is common ground.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:05 am

Rachael wrote:That itself is common ground.


There's a far bigger common ground: We all love Doom. It's a shame that so many people have such a tunnel vision of what Doom should be.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:08 am

I agree there, too.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:53 am

Rachael wrote:However - I think you're entirely wrong about that with the retro crowd. That itself is common ground.

ah, that's the thing! they're all "retro", but nobody can agree with what "retro" really mean. ;-)

Graf Zahl wrote:It's not just about being able to do the things you want but also to share the work with others. It's a completely different situation if you got to deal with every detail of your engine or if you can sometimes say "Nah, let someone else deal with this".

you prolly can't even imagine my desire to shift all the gfx stuff to someone! ;-) i never liked to work with graphics (aka "visualisation"), i am a compiler/low-level library guy. i'd also like for someone to pick up MP part too. not that i am expecting for someone to come, tho -- even GZDoom has only so much devs, and virtually everybody in Doom community knows what GZDoom is.

Graf Zahl wrote:There's also the bigger picture to consider: If PrBoom falls into disrepair, this could have devastating consequences for the future of Doom

dunno, i'm not so pessimistic. i mean, ok, it can run "nuts" with decent FPS, that's great. but i don't see it as something that can ruin Doom community if it disappear. besides, the codebase can last for at least a decade more anyway, even if in VM due to 32 bits. but maybe i have some blind spots here...
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:50 am

ketmar wrote: i'd also like for someone to pick up MP part too. not that i am expecting for someone to come, tho -- even GZDoom has only so much devs, and virtually everybody in Doom community knows what GZDoom is.


That's actually one of the conundrums: There's so much emphasis on "having to support multiplayer" but in reality most implementations are so broken that nobody uses them. PrBoom is a good example. And yet some devs pour work into such semi-working features that's better invested elsewhere, because for some a port with no multiplayer is no port at all...


ketmar wrote:dunno, i'm not so pessimistic. i mean, ok, it can run "nuts" with decent FPS, that's great. but i don't see it as something that can ruin Doom community if it disappear. besides, the codebase can last for at least a decade more anyway, even if in VM due to 32 bits. but maybe i have some blind spots here...


Yes, the code base will survive, but if the port starts to lag behind and becomes "that old clunker", what's going to happen then? I somehow doubt that Eternity will be able to substitute - just look how slow their development is going - all the momentun from the time when Printz worked on the portal code is gone by now. And the rest of the classic ports doesn't even support modern screen sizes properly! The community *needs* a baseline port that works well on modern hardware.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby drfrag » Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:46 am

Rachael wrote:and have even come close to tearing off from each other at times

Really? I don't remember doing that myself. :) I changed the defaults to resemble the software renderer and to have an usable keyboard layout out of the box for testing. I actually looked at a few doomworld surveys and sure those guys know what's best. :mrgreen: Besides Softpoly II doesn't have filtering and lowres modes look good only without it so...
ketmar wrote:but nobody can agree with what "retro" really mean

Mine is for sure the ultimate retro port, it runs like shit even on modern hardware. And there's an option to make it even choppier. :) That good old DSL1 you know.
Graf Zahl wrote:most implementations are so broken that nobody uses them

But MP actually works in PRBoom+, i tried it when i was considering creating PRBoom-. :P Now with ear damage i don't even want to try it after hearing about that ear piercing sound bug, i don't remember ever experiencing it BTW. There's a problem with all players being green, it could be related to the automap as colors are the same there.
Graf Zahl wrote:And the rest of the classic ports doesn't even support modern screen sizes properly!

You mean widescreen? Russian Doom has it and i plan to port the feature after the merge with Choco 3 with SDL2 provided the repo doesn't explode that is. :)
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Gez » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:24 am

Something I've been thinking about recently is the idea of having several different engines working with the same backend. In the same way that Delta Touch on Android manages to run its own versions of Choco, PrB+, Doom Retro, GZDoom, LZDoom, and Zandronum. The engine capabilities remain separate (you don't get complevels in GZDoom, or DECORATE in Chocolate Doom, they all do their own thing their own way) but they use the same backend so they can all use the same config for user preferences. Or, in a completely different genre, ScummVM, which boasts over 50 engines and 250 games, all sharing the same backend for audio and video output, mouse/keyboard/joystick/etc. input, fileaccess, etc.

It might be a pipe dream thing, but it could be a way to get a big common thing on which people could work on what interests them without stomping on each other's feet. I could see a "union engine" being possible this way, even if it would still have a lot of duplicated efforts as people might want to do the same thing in different ways in their own engine forks.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:52 am

Something like that is definitely doable, however the big divide will definitely be the rendering backends. Some people will insist on OpenGL 1.1 support, others will insist on making OpenGL 3.3 the minimum requirement.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:18 am

Rachael wrote:Some people will insist on OpenGL 1.1 support, others will insist on making OpenGL 3.3 the minimum requirement.


In this case the message should be clear, i.e. "if you insist to run this on toaster hardware, use the toaster backend" (i.e. the software renderer.)
Absolutely nobody needs OpenGL 1.1 anymore, even the crappiest of crap hardware that's still in existence supports OpenGL 1.4 at least and that's already lightyears ahead of 1.1

People also need to realize that by insisting on supporting "everything" they actually get nothing.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Redneckerz » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:25 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:I don't think people expect something from Entryway, but that they expect a project that's being actively maintained and brings some real advantage. So far UMAPINFO isn't the feature to do it. And here's the real problem: I cannot do it alone because I've got other projects that are far more important to me.
But so far nobody has volunteered to help. But at the same time I see some people wasting their time on pointless fringe projects that have some semi-historic significance but little else (...cough - WinMBF - cough... -do we need YET ANOTHER retro port treading the same ground...?)

Ill take a bite of your text cookie here since i did some digging of this stuff recently.

As large (by popularity) as GZDoom (and PrBoom+) are, they aren't encompassing all Doom players out there. You simply aren't the only one, and you can't propogate which ports any developer should target. As much as i like The Adventures of Graf Zahl, especially if that was a free expansion on the Adventures of Square, being critical of developer's decisions to create their own ports/works is honestly a bit silly.

At the same time i'd love to see other advanced ports get more popular, like DelphiDoom, but they aim for niches, not universal playability.

In short, every developer is free to do what they want, as you know. But you can't just be adversed of a developer's decision to work on a port that isn't GZDoom's or PrBoom+'s codebase. Especially when you suggest people should take some of their personal stake a bit back - Which other stake should they give their part to then? GZDoom's? That's your personal stake, after all.

But i am not going to do a full Debbie Downer.

Graf Zahl wrote:Or another thought: Do we really need ports like Crispy asd Retro at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to team up and produce a great community engine? Sure, everybody has their right do do what they want, but let's just think about it a little. If I allocate some time for this port and others do, too, I think a lot can be achieved. But everybody's busy with their own projects, never mind that most of them are fringe ports with a low user number. Imagine what could be possible if some people took their personal stake a bit back and did something for the community as a whole instead - at least part of the time.

That said, I've been working on putting GZDoom's sound system into PrBoom, once that is done, let's see if this is something that may sway some people. A classic port with true 3D sound capabilities is something long overdue.

Over the course of Doom's history there have been several attempts which i am sure you are aware of. From OGRE to the Joint Doom Standards (and even KB1's thread at DW) it is atleast clear that there is a shout for a more universal standard. But how to go from it, is another question. There is some definition obviously through the Boom-compatible moniker obviously, but it's not enough.

Personally, i do think some bright minds young and old should go in some kind of commitee to research its viability. These don't have to be people who work on ports themselves or whose work is in limbo (Say Eternity), but have an intricate knowledge of things, both internally with Doom, but also externally with organisation. People like Fraggle and Entryway along with Ketmar and Jval could be elligible.

Because honestly a marriage between GZDoom and PrBoom+ would be a great starting ground to begin with.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:50 pm

>being critical of developer's decisions to create their own ports/works
it is not about blaming devs for starting their own projects (at least as i understood it). it is (a slightly exaggregated) way to say that people with "retro/vanilla" ports completely forgot the port that is "de-facto standard", and it slowly rots. that is, it is more in the vein of "if you're into 'retro' scene, could you please allocate some love ;-) to PrBoom+ too? because it is dying, and this is wrong." at least that is how i got what Graf said.
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