[Maybe later] DMAPINFO support

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DMAPINFO support

Postby Gez » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:25 pm

DMAPINFO is now a thing that exists. Given its use in the recent official console ports, notably for the Switch, we can hope to see it get a quick adoption by the general map-making public, so it'd make sense to support it. It has the potential of becoming the universal standard UMAPINFO didn't get to be.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:36 pm

I think it'll face exactly the same uphill battle. The main problem is simply that we *NEED* PrBoom support to get any new feature off the ground. And it looks like I'll have to do it, which sucks.
But in order to get PrBoom users to switch we first need to give them some really compelling reasons. UMAPINFO is just one small thing, what the fork needs is something that makes people use it over entryway's PrBoom+, that's why I've been refactoring ZMusic recently, so I can plug that into PrBoom instead of its current and rather messy music system. Once that happens, the maps will come. Remember, here's where Eternity has been constantly failing - it never provided anything of genuine value that makes it truly preferable over PrBoom. So this is the route I'm trying now to give it better exposure.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Kinsie » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:40 pm

What DMAPINFO has over UMAPINFO is that it already exists as a solid, defined entity, rather than commencing life as some theoretical thing being endlessly debated and redefined by a bunch of people who'll never adopt it. It's also implemented in an official commercial Doom product, effectively making it as "canon" as things like No Rest For The Living.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:35 am

That may be, but as long as PrBoom does not support it in a version that actually gets USED by people, this will suffer the same fate. The problem here is still the lowest common denominator - as long as "Boom compatible" means "hardcoded map progression", nothing is gained. And in that regard, "being designed by id" really means nothing.

Personally I don't care which format prevails - integrating the DMAPINFO features into ZMAPINFO for a combined format is absolutely doable, but it's also lacking a few things that UMAPINFO has, e.g. customizable monster death actions.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Cacodemon345 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:38 am

The problem here is that DMAPINFO, as it stands, is only a thing in the new Doom ports. People using it should be at least aware of the fact that it would not be compatible with the original Doom release.

This, while useful, would only really work if the upcoming Doom ports feature loading WAD files from some form of external storage. Otherwise, I see it as being doomed to fail. Would modifications to the new ports' data be allowed? That's the real question. If yes, then this would be useful.

This would also set the stage for the new ZDoom MAPINFO syntax to be standardized across source ports, IMO.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Redneckerz » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:26 am

Graf Zahl wrote:I think it'll face exactly the same uphill battle. The main problem is simply that we *NEED* PrBoom support to get any new feature off the ground. And it looks like I'll have to do it, which sucks.
But in order to get PrBoom users to switch we first need to give them some really compelling reasons. UMAPINFO is just one small thing, what the fork needs is something that makes people use it over entryway's PrBoom+, that's why I've been refactoring ZMusic recently, so I can plug that into PrBoom instead of its current and rather messy music system. Once that happens, the maps will come. Remember, here's where Eternity has been constantly failing - it never provided anything of genuine value that makes it truly preferable over PrBoom. So this is the route I'm trying now to give it better exposure.

Sounds like that along with ZMusic and now DMAPINFO you are well on your way of crafting as custom PBoom+ port.

Guaranteed zero success but i could ruffle some feathers at DW and try to get some support going. I do agree with the statue that DMAPINFO's existence is analogus to canon quality - Its from idSoft, after all. Several custom variants exist that in some ways provide more features than DMAPINFO, but the latter's lasting interest is indeed that it comes from the Source, sort to say.

By default its always better to have a set standard that can apply across many ports - DMAPINFO is literally paving the way for such a thing.

Graf Zahl wrote:That may be, but as long as PrBoom does not support it in a version that actually gets USED by people, this will suffer the same fate. The problem here is still the lowest common denominator - as long as "Boom compatible" means "hardcoded map progression", nothing is gained. And in that regard, "being designed by id" really means nothing.

This is sadly also true. Historic attempts for a common ruleset aside, there is definitely some headroom to make a universal definition of things. Boom-compatible as it is now has a general descriptor, but its not detailed enough.

Setting forth to use stuff like this as made by id as a start would be a good stepping stone towards a more uniform understanding on standards. I can imagine DMAPINFO would make perfect sense towards the 2 popular ports that are in existence - PrBoom+ and GZDoom (and variants).
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Cacodemon345 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:35 am

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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:35 am

The thing about DMAPINFO is that it literally appeared out of nowhere. Suddenly Bethesda decided to have their own mapinfo lump.

Linguica brings up one good point, though: what's the point of supporting something when the system that it was made for does not even support the loading of custom content? There's only two reasons this would make sense:

One is if Bethesda plans to port this silly Doom port back to PC again. Don't put it past Bethesda to do such a thing, though - remember how many times Skyrim got rereleased?

The other is if you want a source port to load the console Doom content. (Does it have any exclusives? Otherwise, this would not make any sense, either)
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:41 am

Rachael wrote:One is if Bethesda plans to port this silly Doom port back to PC again. Don't put it past Bethesda to do such a thing, though - remember how many times Skyrim got rereleased?



Seriously, why shouldn't they? Source ports nonwithstanding, they now have a Doom engine that natively runs on modern OSs, it'd make a lot of sense to bundle that with the original games to make it easier for newbies to use instead of DosBox or (ugh) Doom95...

And once we get there, things may look VERY different, if mappers can create content for this engine they'd use this lump and port support would become mandatory by default.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Rachael » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:42 am

They already had that with Doom3 BFG edition and its bundled Doom1/2 rerelease.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Kinsie » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:06 am

Rachael wrote:One is if Bethesda plans to port this silly Doom port back to PC again. Don't put it past Bethesda to do such a thing, though - remember how many times Skyrim got rereleased?
The announcement footage of community content in the 2019 version used keyboard button prompts instead of gamepad buttons, so this is probably likely. I doubt it'll be a separate release though, it'll probably be an update for one of the 20 different digital releases already out there.

Rachael wrote:The other is if you want a source port to load the console Doom content. (Does it have any exclusives? Otherwise, this would not make any sense, either)
The only "new" content announced so far is a new Id-exclusive build of SIGIL (probably just a minor update for bugfixes + DMAPINFO) and a minor tweak to No Rest For The Living to use the hell skies in the later levels. Since the addon content system is basically just a downloader for free, curated WADsets, I doubt you'll see much in the way of outright exclusivity (not without pissing off a whole buncha people, anyway).
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby ketmar » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:38 am

i believe that DMAPINFO won't make it. with something like snapmap for id tech 1 it could, but with the current state... people who will want to make maps for id tech 1 will inevitably come here or to DW, and will learn that "official" ports aren't that popular at all, so it is better to have DMAPINFO *in* *addition* to another mapinfo lump (if there is any sense in support that 'D' at all). i think that there are zero reasons to support 'D' thing until we'll see a constant stream of new maps with DMAPINFO only. and i doubt that it will happen.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:56 am

ketmar wrote:i think that there are zero reasons to support 'D' thing until we'll see a constant stream of new maps with DMAPINFO only. and i doubt that it will happen.


Fully agreed here. Off this goes.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby 3saster » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:13 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:That may be, but as long as PrBoom does not support it in a version that actually gets USED by people, this will suffer the same fate. The problem here is still the lowest common denominator - as long as "Boom compatible" means "hardcoded map progression", nothing is gained. And in that regard, "being designed by id" really means nothing.


The bigger annoyance here imo is that everything is dictated by what PrBoom+ does. "Vanilla/Boom/MBF-compatible" no longer means "runs in Vanilla/Boom/MBF exe files", it means "runs in PrBoom+ on complevel 2/9/11". And as Graf nicely discovered, it seems no one will accept any PrBoom+ additions unless entryway himself does it, so any chance of PrBoom+ ever changing is basically moot.

The other problem I see with something like DMAPINFO or UMAPINFO is we get into a vicious circle. Port authors don't add it because no maps use it, and maps don't use it because no ports support it. Someone has to take the plunge, and Graf unfortunately showed it can't be him...

Regarding the DMAPINFO and PWADs, I think another problem is that DMAPINFO is only being used on mapsets that didn't really need it in the first place. If support for something that actually would benefit from DMAPINFO has support added for it (Scythe is probably the most realistic example), then I imagine that might turn a few heads, but as-is, DMAPINFO doesn't really do anything for the mapsets that use it.
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Re: DMAPINFO support

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:16 am

3saster wrote:The bigger annoyance here imo is that everything is dictated by what PrBoom+ does. "Vanilla/Boom/MBF-compatible" no longer means "runs in Vanilla/Boom/MBF exe files", it means "runs in PrBoom+ on complevel 2/9/11". And as Graf nicely discovered, it seems no one will accept any PrBoom+ additions unless entryway himself does it, so any chance of PrBoom+ ever changing is basically moot.


I don't think people expect something from Entryway, but that they expect a project that's being actively maintained and brings some real advantage. So far UMAPINFO isn't the feature to do it. And here's the real problem: I cannot do it alone because I've got other projects that are far more important to me.
But so far nobody has volunteered to help. But at the same time I see some people wasting their time on pointless fringe projects that have some semi-historic significance but little else (...cough - WinMBF - cough... -do we need YET ANOTHER retro port treading the same ground...?)
Or another thought: Do we really need ports like Crispy asd Retro at all? Wouldn't it make more sense to team up and produce a great community engine? Sure, everybody has their right do do what they want, but let's just think about it a little. If I allocate some time for this port and others do, too, I think a lot can be achieved. But everybody's busy with their own projects, never mind that most of them are fringe ports with a low user number. Imagine what could be possible if some people took their personal stake a bit back and did something for the community as a whole instead - at least part of the time.

That said, I've been working on putting GZDoom's sound system into PrBoom, once that is done, let's see if this is something that may sway some people. A classic port with true 3D sound capabilities is something long overdue.
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