[No] Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Moderator: GZDoom Developers

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Matt » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:10 am

Graf Zahl wrote:I had to sleep over this for a night but my final decision is not to add this.

The main reason is that it is more or less pointless. This is a PWAD of the rare kind that has been properly set up by its creator that it can be started without hassle by just double-clicking it, and it automatically selects the proper IWAD. By adding yet another entry to that crappy IWAD selector nothing is really gained here, it won't make selecting Sigil any easier but it will make it harder to select any of the other stuff because yet another unneeded entry has been added. IMO that box should only serve one purpose: Allow selecting the IWAD to play something where the engine does not know which IWAD to autoselect - nothing more, nothing less.

I do not share this obsession with making the contents of that tiny winodow the primary measurement of what's an 'approved' game or whatever you call it.

This also means I won't make the localization of its texts part of the engine string table. This can be done as an add-on - maybe John Romero will add it to an updated version if we ask him...?

Aside from that, after playing through the entire thing I have to say I didn't really like it, regardless of the Cacoward it will inevitably win - not for being good but merely for being made by John Romero. So why increase its exposure even more by putting it on a pedestal it doesn't really deserve
I'm just going to say I agree 100% with the quoted rationale in this post.

And "IWAD" means something and this ain't it - it would be super misleading to imply that SIGIL is a standalone that doesn't require any other wad to play. Nothing anyone can say about its historical significance or quality will give it a PLAYPAL or the full set of monster sprites or anything of that sort.
User avatar
Matt
Putting the XD into *xdeath since 2007
 
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Location: Gotham City SAR, Wyld-Lands of the Lotus People, Dominionist PetroConfederacy of Saudi Canadia

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:30 am

I am glad that this issue got some closure, and understand and agree with a lot of Graf's and Enjay's and Matt's reasoning, and most of the things that they say.

That being said though, there is one sticking point to me, and that is the IWAD selector itself. I understand the need and desire to keep the engine free of clutter, but it's always been a bit lackluster, and it is not even the same from one platform to the next. In fact, sometimes it's not even consistent on one of its major platforms - forgot to install the GTK+ libraries on FreeBSD/Linux? Ooops you get a terminal version, which you'll probably have no idea is even there since the terminal doesn't show by default with desktop-launched icons.

To me, I think SIGIL is of historical significance enough, at least to me, for a place on my own IWAD selector list. But I only speak of this personally. I am not going to force my view onto those who disagree with me - and by all means they are completely correct in their assertions of why it should not be there.

And I think I can say this pretty objectively since it's pretty clear that I do not suffer from idolatry like a lot of the Doom community unfortunately does. I'm not doing this because I think Romero is a god. I am not doing this because I think everything he produces is automatically top notch quality just because of his experience and involvement with the original game. I just appreciate that a man who has had such a huge impact on my life still loves and is building things for the original game that he helped create. And no matter the quality of the end result - no matter how much I may like or dislike the gameplay design decisions that went into this - I appreciate that he did this.

My justifications are good enough for me. They're not good enough for Graf, Matt, and Enjay. And that is PERFECTLY OKAY! We are all human and we have a right to our own opinions. So please - do not attack Graf over this decision. And Graf - I really hope you show a little more restraint over those who do. They're not worth it, in the end. Most of the time, when you ignore such people, they fade away into obscurity, but unlike them you still live on, and you never fade in importance like they do.

It's better, given the disagreements, that this never became an official GZDoom feature. Let this be what it is. There's two sides to every coin, and as always, we all move on.
User avatar
Rachael
Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Discord: Rachael#3767
Twitch ID: madamerachelle
Github ID: madame-rachelle
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:59 am

TBH, the entire IWAD selector has become something of a sore spot to me - it's a cluttered mess. This has come to the point that these days I have placed most of the IWADs outside of GZDoom's search path, namely those I do not need for launching PWADs. But even this is too much IMO. In order to load certain PWADS, the IWAD needs to be in the search path - and if it is in the search path it will get shown in the IWAD selector. Worse, there's one more thing that forces itself in here in a way I don't like, and that's the GOG and Steam installations. There's no way to disable these, e.g. for a custom game that ships the engine with its own IWAD. Since such a switch needs to be outside the config file I have no clue how to add it.

So no matter, from where I start GZDoom with whatever setup, there's always that godforsaken IWAD selector listing 'game xyz' (which is supposed to be there) and my Steam based Strife Veteran Edition's IWADs.

So, IMO, instead of adding more clutter of whatever kind here, we should rather be thinking about how to contain what this window shows. If we find some way to let the end user control this, everybody could just be making their own list of content here - that may include Sigil, it may also include Requiem, Memento Mori or BTSX (or whatever other favorite episode comes to mind.)
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:08 am

I agree there, fully, but I have never been a UX designer. I'd be one of those idiots who use electron for the whole thing - not because I love electron (I really don't), but because it'd be the only way I know how to do it. I don't have experience with anything else, and it's always been too bothersome for me to learn it.

This is something where people from multiple platforms need to come together and decide on a standard, and we also need a way to bring it into reality. What we have is unacceptable. Mac has an IWAD list and a command line on their IWAD window. Unix/Linux just has an IWAD list and nothing more. Windows has actually everything except the command line on its IWAD window. Wild inconsistencies across the board, and there's just no real way to unify the code base right now so that a change that happens for one platform is reflected on the other 2(.5?).

Again - this is just something I do not have enough experience in to make any qualified decisions on it.
User avatar
Rachael
Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Discord: Rachael#3767
Twitch ID: madamerachelle
Github ID: madame-rachelle
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:14 am

The big problem here, of course, is, that there's no lightweight cross-platform GUI abstraction. The only ones I consider usable (Qt and wxWidgets) are multi-megabyte pieces of bloat that want to take over the entire app logic. Everything else I've ever tried tries to play cheap and as a results looks like garbage.

Also, let's not forget that the macOS startup popup performs some godawful hackery to asynchronously launch the game which disconnects the debugger, I definitely had my fun with that setup.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby _mental_ » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:23 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Also, let's not forget that the macOS startup popup performs some godawful hackery to asynchronously launch the game which disconnects the debugger, I definitely had my fun with that setup.

It just restarts the game with additional command line options. When IWAD picker shows up, it's too late to modify the command line of own process.
There is no point to use this window during development. Xcode has a really good way to configure custom options, much better than Visual Studio.
_mental_
 
 
 
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:55 am

_mental_ wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Also, let's not forget that the macOS startup popup performs some godawful hackery to asynchronously launch the game which disconnects the debugger, I definitely had my fun with that setup.

It just restarts the game with additional command line options. When IWAD picker shows up, it's too late to modify the command line of own process.


That "Just" without knowing about it caused me endless trouble debugging on a Mac.


_mental_ wrote:Xcode has a really good way to configure custom options, much better than Visual Studio.


I tend to disagree here. Working frequently with both debuggers, I can't really find any good words about Apple's product here.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby _mental_ » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:24 am

Graf Zahl wrote:That "Just" without knowing about it caused me endless trouble debugging on a Mac.

Well, you could ask me about it. Usually, I'm using -iwad option on all platforms.

Graf Zahl wrote:I tend to disagree here. Working frequently with both debuggers, I can't really find any good words about Apple's product here.

Hm, single one line edit box vs. multi-line edit boxes that can be turned on/off independently... Probably, we have different needs in customization here.
I'm not talking about Xcode in general, there are lots of strange design decisions in it, only about this particular feature.
_mental_
 
 
 
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:28 am

I think what would be better for Mac, and can be put into all platforms, is if the command line is transformed into a modifiable string instead of restarting the entire executable.
User avatar
Rachael
Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Discord: Rachael#3767
Twitch ID: madamerachelle
Github ID: madame-rachelle
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:46 am

_mental_ wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:That "Just" without knowing about it caused me endless trouble debugging on a Mac.

Well, you could ask me about it. Usually, I'm using -iwad option on all platforms.


I didn't even know that it was caused by some deliberate action. All I noticed is that I was unable to debug with XCode and had no idea why.
Rachael wrote:I think what would be better for Mac, and can be put into all platforms, is if the command line is transformed into a modifiable string instead of restarting the entire executable.


Agreed. All this needs to do is fill the global Args variable - there's really no need to force this into the system's command line parameters.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Enjay » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:47 am

Rachael wrote:I am not doing this because I think everything he produces is automatically top notch quality just because of his experience and involvement with the original game. I just appreciate that a man who has had such a huge impact on my life still loves and is building things for the original game that he helped create. And no matter the quality of the end result - no matter how much I may like or dislike the gameplay design decisions that went into this - I appreciate that he did this.

Just for the record, I agree with everything that you said there. It's just that I fall down on the other side of opinion as to whether it should be included in the GZDoom engine by default or not (though I don't fall far from the decision line as I said). I wouldn't say that I idolise Romero or anything, but I do hold him in very high esteem and, for me, he was always the one that gave the playing/user experience side of Doom its real character. Carmack's genius is undeniable and the artwork was/is amazing but, to me, it was Romero that really breathed life into it as a game and I really admire his continued attachment to the game and how he has treated fans of the game over the years.

Graf Zahl wrote:TBH, the entire IWAD selector has become something of a sore spot to me - it's a cluttered mess. This has come to the point that these days I have placed most of the IWADs outside of GZDoom's search path, namely those I do not need for launching PWADs. But even this is too much IMO. In order to load certain PWADS, the IWAD needs to be in the search path - and if it is in the search path it will get shown in the IWAD selector. Worse, there's one more thing that forces itself in here in a way I don't like, and that's the GOG and Steam installations. There's no way to disable these, e.g. for a custom game that ships the engine with its own IWAD. Since such a switch needs to be outside the config file I have no clue how to add it.

So no matter, from where I start GZDoom with whatever setup, there's always that godforsaken IWAD selector listing 'game xyz' (which is supposed to be there) and my Steam based Strife Veteran Edition's IWADs.

That's exactly how I feel about it too, especially the GOG and Steam parts (although I don't have Steam but the GOG games are annoying enough). I too have moved as many IWADs as possible out of GZDoom's sight but as you say, it's especially annoying when what is supposed to be a stand alone game pops up and asks if I want to run Strife VE.
User avatar
Enjay
Everyone is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody. Twain
 
 
 
Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Location: Scotland

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby _mental_ » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:05 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Agreed. All this needs to do is fill the global Args variable - there's really no need to force this into the system's command line parameters.

IIRC there was at least one major problem with this. Several important command line options like -file are processed before IWAD selection.
This makes additional command line options mostly useless. Users were happy with it, while it doesn't cause any issues for me.
Also, I didn't want any significant changes in cross-platform code at that moment.
_mental_
 
 
 
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Xim » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:45 pm

What makes me think of SIGIL as a mod, rather than an official release is the new title screen. You've got this new SIGIL title screen at the start hat replaces the default one. Why would the focus of the game be entirely on the final episode?

As great as it is, it's just a fan mod that may or may not be part of the official Doom cannon.
User avatar
Xim
 
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Location: A wretched hive of scum and villainy

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:20 pm

Some people agree, some people disagree, I really don't see any point in bumping this old topic just to relitigate that.

If you disagree, there's options available - otherwise, don't bother downloading it and you don't have to worry about it. :) Everybody's happy.
User avatar
Rachael
Webmaster
 
Joined: 13 Jan 2004
Discord: Rachael#3767
Twitch ID: madamerachelle
Github ID: madame-rachelle
Graphics Processor: nVidia with Vulkan support

Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:46 pm

IMO John Romero is being put on some pedestal here he just doesn't deserve. This episode has been hyped beyond belief. For all intents and purposes this is just a 9 level Doom 1 episode - not the best of the year, not the worst of the year, but the one thing it surely isn't is something even remotely official.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom Developer
Lead GZDoom Developer
 
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to Closed Feature Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests