[No] Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:00 am

I have my doubts it will make it in. If it does, then a discussion over what it should be would be more viable. But right now with its current prospects I think this discussion will hit entirely dead air.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby drfrag » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:25 am

Well other ports are adding support for it and quality aside it's a big thing. I still haven't played it BTW, if the concern is support for No Rest then add it as well.
IMHO this should be in. Besides the russian guys have already translated it. If quality is a concern should we remove support for old iwads that are not good enough then?
Edit: just a reminder, now you may update the status for the legacy repo if you want.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Nash » Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:43 am

Graf Zahl wrote:But it's indeed setting a precedent.


drfrag wrote:Besides if quality is a concern should we remove support for old iwads that are not good enough then?


If we're going by this criteria, then to be frank, all of those engine-added IWADs should be removed, leaving only the official (id Software official) games. Would definitely help reduce clutter (see image).

Better mechanics and concepts can be concocted to define user IWAD data, all that stuff came during a time where there was no better way to add custom IWADs to the engine...



But I digress. Just my two cents. tl;dr if we're going to set a standard for what goes into the engine and what doesn't, set it right and be consistent.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby drfrag » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:00 am

Nash wrote:leaving only the official (id Software official) games

It's unofficial since it's made by Romero and not Zenimax ,is that really relevant?
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Enjay » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:30 am

Nash wrote:If we're going by this criteria, then to be frank, all of those engine-added IWADs should be removed, leaving only the official (id Software official) games.

Actually, I kind of agree with that.

I never thought it was a great idea to have all those other IWADs supported. However, support for them was added before there was a clean way to add auto-support for a custom IWAD, so it was more acceptable then. Nowadays, any custom IWAD can be supported if the author sets it up correctly so there shouldn't be a need to add support to the engine for any new IWADs,

I don't think it would be right to remove support for them unless the authors were likely to change the IWADs to take advantage of modern auto-support, but there is no need to add new auto-support.


Although, that is very much a side question versus the Sigil situation.


As for Sigil, personally, I don't feel that it should be supported (as I said) but if it were to be supported in a similar way to how Deathkings is, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I suspect that after a few more play throughs, Sigil will end up in my archive directory and not have a permanent home with my IWADs anyway.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Malice » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:53 am

One more vote from me for the camp of adding "No Rest For The Living" AND "Sigil".

Logically speaking, there will never be anything as close to official as these two WAD's regardless of opinion in quality. In 2019 it's not like the old gang will ever get back together and join id again to start cranking out new maps. Ownership has changed. So have the respected positions of those fundamentally involved.

Some claim DOOM 3 or DOOM 2016 for example aren't official either since the original crew never had a hand in the projects. How much hair splitting is going to be done in order to come to a conclusion?

These maps were built by the hands of those that worked on the original game. Outside of legal technicalities that only matter in a court room, those of us fans that are able to rationalize see it that way.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Enjay » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:59 am

Malice wrote:Logically speaking, there will never be anything as close to official as these two WAD's regardless of opinion in quality. In 2019 it's not like the old gang will ever get back together and join id again to start cranking out new maps. Ownership has changed. So have the respected positions of those fundamentally involved.

Exactly. So "official" is over. No need to add support for anything else. ;)
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:35 am

Enjay, I have never seen you before this passionate in opposition to an idea. I don't have any right to ask what's fueling this, but you know how curiosity kills the cat... >_>
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Enjay » Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:35 am

My previous post was meant to be about 90% humour, 10% seriousness.

My position on this, on balance, that it should be a "no" but I'm really not that bothered about it.

I guess that the last few posts may have tapped into what underpins my objection though. It's merely that I don't see a need to keep on adding engine side support for all of these additional things. In this particular case, Sigil runs perfectly well when loaded in the normal pwad way, so why add support for it? I just don't see a need or any real benefit but I do see (minor) downsides: engine clutter and the fact that Sigil replaces some IWAD resources.

But I'm really not that bothered about it. My objections must have come across more strongly than intended. :)
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:03 pm

Alright, sorry for misinterpreting you, then.

I can definitely see the argument with the engine clutter. I already have a solution on hand that I have prepared in the eventuality that this gets [No]'d, anyway. If it does - there's no real loss to people who would want this, because an alternative solution already exists (even though it's not yet published). The only problem with it is, it's somewhat version-dependent and might not stay 100% up to date with future GZDoom releases.

In retrospect I kind of wish I had gone with the alternative first, but at the time I didn't know it was possible and I also didn't anticipate there would be so much hesitation towards adopting, or even for that matter, outright rejecting this. Knowing what I know now, I never would've submitted this PR to begin with.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby dpJudas » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:20 pm

I don't know what to think about this. It belongs to the launcher part of GZDoom, which is intentionally kept at a minimum based on the logic that people should use external launchers. So far so good, except nobody ever made a proper launcher, in my opinion.

What's worse, the artistic handling of the doom community is primarily done by people which, quite frankly, I'd rather not help as I'm tired of their bullshit. I totally think Romero's new episode, and many other mods, deserve something better that will improve their exposure. But nobody seems to want to do that job and given what I've seen the last few years I've been part of the community I don't want to take one for the team and do it.

Sorry for the negativity in this post. Ultimately I'm siding on whatever Graf prefers here as it will always be arbitrary where you draw the line of what the internal launcher should support.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:27 pm

I had to sleep over this for a night but my final decision is not to add this.

The main reason is that it is more or less pointless. This is a PWAD of the rare kind that has been properly set up by its creator that it can be started without hassle by just double-clicking it, and it automatically selects the proper IWAD. By adding yet another entry to that crappy IWAD selector nothing is really gained here, it won't make selecting Sigil any easier but it will make it harder to select any of the other stuff because yet another unneeded entry has been added. IMO that box should only serve one purpose: Allow selecting the IWAD to play something where the engine does not know which IWAD to autoselect - nothing more, nothing less.

I do not share this obsession with making the contents of that tiny winodow the primary measurement of what's an 'approved' game or whatever you call it.

This also means I won't make the localization of its texts part of the engine string table. This can be done as an add-on - maybe John Romero will add it to an updated version if we ask him...?

Aside from that, after playing through the entire thing I have to say I didn't really like it, regardless of the Cacoward it will inevitably win - not for being good but merely for being made by John Romero. So why increase its exposure even more by putting it on a pedestal it doesn't really deserve?
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby William Clayfield » Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:40 pm

[quote="Graf Zahl"]Aside from that, after playing through the entire thing I have to say I didn't really like it, regardless of the Cacoward it will inevitably win - not for being good but merely for being made by John Romero. So why increase its exposure even more by putting it on a pedestal it doesn't really deserve?[/quote]
The cacowards are a complete joke anyway. It's basically just circle jerks and idol worship. If you do not kiss their asses every single day and tell them how good they are then you can kiss your chances of ever getting one bye-bye.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Malice » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:15 am

Graf Zahl wrote:So why increase its exposure even more by putting it on a pedestal it doesn't really deserve?



Because your opinion on the quality of the maps is irrelevant to the historical significance of the WAD.

I don't see why anyone would want to discourage the guys responsible for creating the game from continuing to contribute to it a quarter century later which is what this attitude insinuates.


Serious question, what do you think about DOOM 3 / DOOM 2016?

At the end of the day, id as a company is just a hollow shell of itself. What's more important, a label or the people behind it?
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:24 am

Malice wrote:Because your opinion on the quality of the maps is irrelevant to the historical significance of the WAD.



That bullshit again?
What's 'historically significant' here? It's only a 9 level episode which just happens to be made by one of the original developers - and has been marketed with a lot of noise by him.

On terms of 'significance' we also should add entries for other "important" PWADs, like, say, Requiem, Memento Mori, Alien Vendetta, Hell Revealed, BTSX, etc., etc.
This is a PWAD. Period. It's not an IWAD it has absolutely no place being in the IWAD selector, just like all those "significant" WADs listed above.
Just because Romero decided to set it up as a fifth episode doesn't change anything about it - adding it to the list of IWADs does not provide any benefit to the player. That IWAD selector isa NOT a launcher - it's for selecting the base game WAD. The ONLY exception to this rule has been Hexen Deathkings and the only reason for this is that it is an official commercial add-on.

I am not willing to turn the IWAD selector into a poor man's launcher.
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