[No] Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

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Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Fri May 31, 2019 1:28 pm

https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/pull/853

I am doing this as a pull request to avoid doing this unilaterally. I feel that the final decision to do this should not be mine, so I am doing it this way so that it can be decided upon by Graf, and am opening this thread as a discussion for whether it should be done or not.

Some pros:
- Made by one of the original designers for Doom
- Popular with the community
- This 'can be done'

Some cons:
- Romero himself said that this is a "fan mod" for GZDoom, no greater in importance than say UAC DEAD or other important mods.
- In the end it really just is a set of levels with music that takes some minor advantage of GZDoom/Eternity features (which are absent in the "compat" version).
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Nash » Fri May 31, 2019 1:34 pm

This is a good idea, I had the impression Sigil is an addon to Doom 1 just as Deathkings is an addon to Hexen.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri May 31, 2019 1:37 pm

I'm not really sure. The main 'pro' would be that with this we could delete the internal text lump and add translatable content to our own spreadsheet. But it's indeed setting a precedent. Ultimately we chose not to do this for No Rest for the Living for non-BFG Doom 2 and that mod is more official than this one.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Fri May 31, 2019 1:45 pm

I agree there, but there is a major difference in how this one is set up.

Instead of unilaterally clutching onto doom.wad like nerve.wad did for Doom2.wad in a previous release (if it ever got released - not sure), this one adds an entry in the IWAD list and works like Hexen Deathkings.

But yes - ultimately this is a fan mod. This is nothing official. id does not support or sponsor this, Bethesda does not, and Zenimax does not. The only real connection this has to the original Doom is that it was made by John Romero - in my opinion that might be enough to stop there, but the slippery slope argument still really applies. That's the primary reason why I was trepid about committing this change unilaterally - once you do one, what besides the Romero connection would stop you from doing another?

There is one compromise that I can offer - since this will not run when Doom.wad is loaded specifically as the IWAD, the exact same setup can be done with nerve.wad as well. Then the expansions can be offered for both games, but those wishing not to load the expansions will not have them in the way and they only have to load the original game IWADs to not have them.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Enjay » Fri May 31, 2019 2:00 pm

[edit] This was all typed before Rachael's reply. So it sounds like I'm treading over some of the same ground. [/edit]

Hmmm... I'd be in the no camp. While Mr Romero's titanic contribution to Doom cannot be denied and I am most definitely a fan of his maps and his style and, to a certain extent, of the man himself, I think that he is right to classify it as a "fan mod". It is in no-way "official".

Also, as Graf said, it could be seen as setting a precedent. What if Sandy Petersen (or any of the other original id guys) made an episode? Why have we ignored maps by contributors to other official id Doom based products (such as maps by Final Doom authors).

I think it's great that Romero made this episode, that he still has an interest and feels responsibility/ownership/loyalty/whatever to the game and the community that it spawned, and it's a real treat to be able to play something new from him quarter of a century after the game came out, but it is still a fan episode IMO. (And, if I'm going to be perfectly honest, although it is a competent and fun map set, I don't feel that there is anything notable to raise it above the quality of many of the maps that have been produced by the modding community over the years, other than it being associated with the name Romero.)

Got to love this from the text file though:

Code: Select allExpand view
Other WADs by Author    : DOOM.WAD, DOOM1.WAD, DOOM2.WAD, E1M8B.wad, E1M4B.wad
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri May 31, 2019 2:14 pm

Enjay wrote:(And, if I'm going to be perfectly honest, although it is a competent and fun map set, I don't feel that there is anything notable to raise it above the quality of many of the maps that have been produced by the modding community over the years, other than it being associated with the name Romero.)


I have to agree here. Just a few days ago I started playing last year's Cacoward winner "Struggle: Antaresian Legacy" which I interrupted for checking out Sigil. And I have to say that I enjoyed the first 6 maps of Struggle, that's how far I got so far, a lot more than Sigil. It's not bad but I cannot honestly say it's anything special, even for Vanilla standards (the BTSX wads raised that bar a lot.) It's a nice little retro episode, but that's really all it is.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Fri May 31, 2019 3:00 pm

I am honestly not bothered by it one way or another if this gets accepted or declined. But so only one person in support of this is has spoken up - it looks like the direction this is taking is already pretty certain.

Well - it wasn't a waste of time for me. If nothing else, I learned out how to do the HEXDD trick in the engine. :)
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby drfrag » Fri May 31, 2019 3:13 pm

I'm in, why not? I'm a bit of a Romero fan after all. At least it will be merged into LZDoom.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Chris » Fri May 31, 2019 7:29 pm

One point in its favor would be the fact that it's about as official of a proper 5th episode as there will ever be for Doom 1. Though it's technically not official, it does fit right in after Thy Flesh Consumed, with quite consistent mapping standards for the original game by one of the biggest contributors to the original game's maps. While there are surely better maps, Sigil's maps pretty consistent with the original game. There's no sudden jump in quality to the point where it feels different. It's not just a mapset made by Romero, it's an officially unofficial second expansion for Doom 1, following in the footsteps of Ultimate Doom which Romero was also largely responsible for. If Sandy or any of the mappers from the old games were to also release a complete, unofficial episode for the games they worked on, and have similarly consistent quality with those games, I'd be in favor of that too.

That said, I'm not bothered either way. I actually think it would work better to have sigil.wad (or sigil_shreds.wad) be autoloaded when selecting Ultimate Doom, similar to how voices.wad autoloads with strife1.wad. The complete original game is still there as-is, and I don't think it does anything that'll get in the way of any other Doom1 mod. The only downside is how Sigil replaces the title screen and music (and not subtly, like Ultimate Doom did), which may be a good reason to not autoload.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Fri May 31, 2019 9:26 pm

There's no way it would work if Sigil.wad always autoloaded with Doom.wad. That would be way too messy, and would cause way too many issues.

This PR creates a separate entry in the IWAD list for Sigil, and it loads Doom.wad if you select it, along with itself.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Hidden Hands » Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:11 pm

Not sure I get this... are you trying to just add the Sigil chapter to the main DOOM WAD? So it's the fifth chapter in game? Something like this?

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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:04 pm

Rachael wrote:This PR creates a separate entry in the IWAD list for Sigil, and it loads Doom.wad if you select it, along with itself.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Undead » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:28 am

The name “Sigil Of Baphomet” in the code is a bit confusing. Doesn’t “SIGIL” just suffice, like in the original?
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Rachael » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:33 am

That's a wee bit nitpicky and pretty much bikeshedding. At this point I am more concerned over whether this gets accepted at all, and am not interested right now in entertaining any discussion about how detailed the title should be. That's something that can be fussed over if it's accepted.

It's not unusual for the game to have more descriptive names. This is also the full (more complete) name of the game. What I do not want is "SIGIL (sigil)" appearing in the wad list. It looks redundant.

If you're looking for meaning in the title, it's entirely biblical. Here's a description of Baphomet. And here is some detail about the Sigil.
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Re: Add support for SIGIL as an IWAD

Postby Undead » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:53 am

Fair enough. If you want another alternative for changing the name to be separate from the IWAD, “SI6IL” is another option.
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