[No] Layered 3D floors plan.

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Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:15 am

Is it even theoretically possible to place geometry on the top of each other without intersecting? Like having multiple layers? I am able to use stacked sectors, line portals, 3d floors, but there is more I would like to see :mrgreen:
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:31 am

Here is how I imagine this:

A user creates a dummy sector which will contain 3d floors inside.
LayoutDummy.png
LayoutDummy.png (11.29 KiB) Viewed 725 times


3DDummy.jpg


And then, for the sake of magic this will be pasted into a desired area somehow, by creating a pair of linked dummy vertex, the first one inside of a control sector, which will be pointing a center of that control sector, the second is at desired spot in the map?
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Rachael » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:19 am

This simply cannot work. Here is my reasoning:

Doom's geometry is 2D at its core, hands down - no if's, and's, or but's. There's no way around this, it is what it is and you cannot change that.

You can get around that quite a bit by using portals (and even layering them, to some extent) and 3D floors, but you will never get exactly what it is you are asking for, here.

If you have one or two layers and you want to map them independently, consider using sector portals - it is the best way. If you have 4 or more though, obviously this is not going to work because you will hit the screen portal limit.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:25 am

Well, seems like the limit has been reached here :|
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Arctangent » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:36 am

There may still be potential in this - as a core map editor feature. While it'd almost certainly have to be done from scratch, a map editor could use its own format for storing maps and then later compile them into a format that Doom can read, which would, for example, allow for image editor-style layers which are flattened on compile.

'Course, someone would have to make that map editor, which is a big hole to cross from the very beginning.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Rachael » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:35 am

Darkcrafter wrote:Well, seems like the limit has been reached here :|

Doom was marketed as a 3D engine, and GZDoom does quite a bit to bring it closer to that, but at the very core GZDoom is still a 2D engine just as Doom was, originally - with some extra frills to handle 3D actors. (Luckily, unlike Doom, actors themselves in GZDoom are done very beautifully as true 3D but it's still very simplistic in how that is done, anyhow)

This is a limit that simply cannot be bypassed without uprooting the entire engine and redoing it from scratch. But then you'll end with a project that's like that one Doom-in-Unity creation that I forget the name of - where ultimately it just reads Doom's map data and recreates it in 3D.

And then it begs the question - after that point is it really still Doom? How far can you go before the engine loses sight of its purpose? I'm not one to hold back progress, but I am not sure the engine nor the community is ready for that, yet, especially with the amount of work involved to make it happen and yet still somehow be GZDoom in the end.

I think what you're really looking for is a 3D engine that has an editor as easy to use as the DoomBuilder2 children. And really, we just lucked out there. I know 3D editors are a royal pain in the ass to use - I've used them myself. Doom editors were never as easy to use as DB2 until we had DB2, which later forked into GZDB, which itself later forked into GZDBBF. But yeah - Blender? Unity Editor? UE4 editor? Not nearly as fun to use. (At least, that's my experience, anyway)
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:27 pm

Yeah! Creating maps in doom builder is such a joy, that's what I can't say about 3d mapping :D
I personally think that with a new engine doom can loose its face. But if a careful work will be done on imitation of the game logic that is present in doom into 3d, hm, maybe it's possible, but that's hard, and question arises, who is going to do to that :mrgreen:

Although, such things like rocks, slopes and terrain aren't that easy.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Gutawer » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:31 am

Rachael wrote:
Darkcrafter wrote:Well, seems like the limit has been reached here :|

Doom was marketed as a 3D engine, and GZDoom does quite a bit to bring it closer to that, but at the very core GZDoom is still a 2D engine just as Doom was, originally - with some extra frills to handle 3D actors. (Luckily, unlike Doom, actors themselves in GZDoom are done very beautifully as true 3D but it's still very simplistic in how that is done, anyhow)

I would say it's pretty incorrect to say that Doom is a 2D engine. Yes, parts of its 3D simulation are incredibly simplified compared to how they are now, but every object in the game has some concept of height - floors have heights, ceilings have heights, monsters have heights, the player has a height, etc. If you load up a wad with a lot of monsters and a raised platform in a port with vanilla doom collision (NUTS works well for this) and IDKFA yourself a plasma rifle, you'll notice that the projectiles travel happily over all the enemies without hitting them, so projectiles are doing a full 3D collision check - why players don't collide with monsters in the same way is a question I don't know the answer to, but this is proof that 3D stuff is going on. The idea that Doom is 2D because its maps can be displayed top-down without any overlapping geometry is tenuous at best, in my opinion. Monsters can't travel up large height transitions, you fall under gravity when not touching the ground, elevators exist, so there is necessarily a Z axis or none of this could work properly. It's much more accurate to call it something like "primitive 3D" or "simplified 3D" than 2D.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:21 pm

Anyway, I think there is solution for this problem. Yes there still will be a dummy sector on the other end of a map. It will still contain desired 3d floors. Why not to convert this 3d floors geometry into 3d and not to use like a thing? The engine can get the collision information from that dummy sector. :)
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Kinsie » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:03 am

Rachael wrote:I think what you're really looking for is a 3D engine that has an editor as easy to use as the DoomBuilder2 children. And really, we just lucked out there. I know 3D editors are a royal pain in the ass to use - I've used them myself. Doom editors were never as easy to use as DB2 until we had DB2, which later forked into GZDB, which itself later forked into GZDBBF. But yeah - Blender? Unity Editor? UE4 editor? Not nearly as fun to use. (At least, that's my experience, anyway)
Darkcrafter wrote:Yeah! Creating maps in doom builder is such a joy, that's what I can't say about 3d mapping :D
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Caligari87 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:05 am

But can it run crysis export Doom maps?

8-)
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Rachael » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:12 pm

The real tragedy is - that suggestion is going to get buried and forgotten about through the passage of time and no one will even remember that Kinsie suggested it in the first place. That being said, if the program really is as robust as it is advertised, colour me interested.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:55 pm

I tried it a while ago, not nearly as fun as doom builder at all.
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Darkcrafter » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:20 am

Does it still sound like a workaround? :roll:

Darkcrafter wrote:Anyway, I think there is solution for this problem. Yes there still will be a dummy sector on the other end of a map. It will still contain desired 3d floors. Why not to convert this 3d floors geometry into 3d and not to use like a thing? The engine can get the collision information from that dummy sector. :)
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Re: Layered 3D floors plan.

Postby Gez » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:06 am

I don't understand what you mean.
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