[Duplicate] Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby GFD » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:30 pm

That's not— nobody has suggested recording keystrokes here. The proposed telemetry would just be seeing what binds users have set. Exclusively configuration data. I don't think it would even send all binds. Just some stuff like movement keys and actions like move, jump, and attack would give sufficient insight.
Even still, obviously any action taken here would need thorough consideration, and since it doesn't impact the future of the entire engine's development like the hardware statistics have, I don't expect it will be implemented at all, myself.

zrrion the insect wrote:As for where to put the bind stuff in the menu, adding a preset select menu to the IWAD selection box would be nice and would ensure that new players were aware of the options at hand.
This seems like it might be useful as a setup sort of thing when starting with a fresh config file, but anything else would be bloating the IWAD selection box even further.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Matt » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:50 pm

GFD wrote:This seems like it might be useful as a setup sort of thing when starting with a fresh config file, but anything else would be bloating the IWAD selection box even further.
How about adding it every time an IWAD is being run for the first time? It could also include an "Import settings from previous game" option for those of us who just use our Doom settings for everything.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Zenon » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:53 pm

GFD wrote:The proposed telemetry would just be seeing what binds users have set. Exclusively configuration data.


Ah Okay
Thank you for clarifying
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Rachael » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:40 pm

Zenon wrote:
zrrion the insect wrote:For data on what presets to use we could always use more telemetry to see what actually gets used.


I hear a lot of people are already up in arms over GZStats, thinking it's a slippery slope leading to datamining and other supervillainous deeds
I don't think adding what I suppose is essentially a keylogger to the mix is going to make the right impression

You know what's also a slippery slope? Fear.

Please don't assume the worst when someone mentions a questionable word, like "telemetry." If you are confused, ASK what it means, before you assume like this. You are actually very lucky that no one took this and ran with it - it could have ended much worse - but in the future, we will hold you responsible for whatever fallout happens with such a hastened reaction. I know that sounds like a huge responsibility but it's really not too much to ask.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby HexenMapper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:22 pm

I understand some people may not like WASD, but it really is the norm in modern PC shooters. If we're going to cater to a modern audience (as implied by sprite smoothing and filtering etc.), we should also cater to their control scheme. This is mostly about new players. Old players know its dead easy to rebind things, and can use .ini and .cfg files to speed things up.
For example ArmA and Insurgency have WASD out of the box iirc.

The "Movement happens when cheats are entered" isn't really a problem when we have a console, and even without a console the only cheat that causes problems with movement at the same time (provided you're not standing on a very thin ledge...) is IDCLIP: sometimes when coming out of clipping mode the movement puts you into a wall. Its easy to plan for though, just don't have a wall to your right.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Hellser » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:05 pm

Some of the cheat codes can be simplified into key bindings. IDKFA for an example; bind ; "give backpack; give weapons; give ammo; give keys" - one just have to press ";" when playing.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Matt » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:29 pm

"It's the norm so you have to conform" is in itself the worst reason for doing anything ever, and the fact that someone is making such an appeal is frequently the first sign that something is amiss about that thing and value is to be found in not doing it.

If the next GZDoom got rid of the ability to type the canon Doom cheat codes that would cause exactly the sort of alienating drama that the goofs on 8chan thought GZStats and losing XP support would be.
Last edited by Matt on Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby dpJudas » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:05 pm

I have to agree with Graf now - this has become too much bikeshedding. If someone has a concrete solution (like Kinsie had), open a PR for it and let Graf/Rachael decide if it should be merged or not.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Rachael » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:28 pm

HexenMapper wrote:I understand some people may not like WASD, but it really is the norm in modern PC shooters. If we're going to cater to a modern audience (as implied by sprite smoothing and filtering etc.), we should also cater to their control scheme. This is mostly about new players. Old players know its dead easy to rebind things, and can use .ini and .cfg files to speed things up.
For example ArmA and Insurgency have WASD out of the box iirc.

The "Movement happens when cheats are entered" isn't really a problem when we have a console, and even without a console the only cheat that causes problems with movement at the same time (provided you're not standing on a very thin ledge...) is IDCLIP: sometimes when coming out of clipping mode the movement puts you into a wall. Its easy to plan for though, just don't have a wall to your right.

If you're trying to make a case, this isn't a convincing enough argument. "So movement happens when you cheat, waah, deal with it" is not a way to win me over.

dpJudas wrote:I have to agree with Graf now - this has become too much bikeshedding. If someone has a concrete solution (like Kinsie had), open a PR for it and let Graf/Rachael decide if it should be merged or not.


This however, might be - if done properly, obviously.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby nazakomu » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:45 pm

so.. is there going to be a poll for the texture filtering?
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Nash » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:46 pm

dpJudas wrote:I have to agree with Graf now - this has become too much bikeshedding. If someone has a concrete solution (like Kinsie had), open a PR for it and let Graf/Rachael decide if it should be merged or not.


As the saying goes... too many chefs in the kitchen... etc etc ;)
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Rachael » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:51 pm

nazakomu wrote:so.. is there going to be a poll for the texture filtering?

I don't see what the point of such a poll would be. Forum users are self-selecting which will ultimately defeat the purpose of the poll and you have to have an account in order to vote. What this would mostly affect are Brutal Doom users who would never come here - those are the people whose opinion I really would like to weigh against the majority of forum users, the latter of which clearly seem to favor nearest filtering (and I among them).

So in order to do a proper poll, there must be a way to reach out to them, too.

If I were Graf though, I'd say screw it all, ditch the poll, and just change the filtering myself. I really don't like how any of the linear filtering modes fuck with the aesthetics of the game.
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby HexenMapper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:26 pm

Rachael wrote:If you're trying to make a case, this isn't a convincing enough argument.

The argument that most newcomers will be used to WASD? seems pretty compelling.

GZdoom 2.3.2 (apologies if things have changed since this version, it just happens to be the one I found to test a fresh install) has the arrow keys as movement defaults, and mouse 3 as "move forward". There is space for a second binding in the 'strafe left' 'strafe right', and 'move backwards'. Replacing "mouse 3" with W and simply adding ASD for the rest would be an easy fix to at least get newcomers started.
I don't know how many people actually use mouse 3 for moving forwards, but I'm sure its orders of magnitude lower than those who use WASD.

Reload is not bound at all, so adding an 'R for that would be trivial.
Zoom is not bound either, could be bound to 'mouse 2' for a logical modern bind. (mouse 2 for strafing? really?)
Crouch is not bound, could easily be set to 'C'

Use could easily be set to 'E' rather than Joy4 (do people really play doom with a joystick?), but could just as easily be left as 'space'.

The main problems here are losing mouse 3 as 'move forward'. Is that really such a concession for out-of-the-box modern bindings? I would say no.

Other strange things about GZDoom 'out of the box':
-That cursor. Which ear of the rabbit am I supposed to be using as the pointer? I immediately change this to 'Simple Arrow'
-running in a window. For what purpose? original doom was full screen. why should we be running it in a window? to completely ruin immersion? so we can't see the hideous default filtering up close?
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby Rachael » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:36 pm

No it is not a compelling argument. Nevertheless you've made your case. If you have nothing further to actually contribute to this thread, such as actual implementation, I am going to ask you to leave, because I am not here to argue with you. You can't force YOUR preferences on other people, no matter how compelling you think they are.

The cursor was chosen as a thematic semblance to Doom - Doom's "storyline" so to speak deals with Doom Guy's pet rabbit Daisy.

Running in a window is a necessary evil. The user can press ctrl-enter to switch to fullscreen easily. The issue with fullscreen is it tends to mess up user settings or other windows in Windows, and while it's clear some people prefer fullscreen regardless of this, which is why it's not outright removed, it's not cool to make it a default, especially at a low resolution (640x480).
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Re: Sprite Smoothing and Bindings

Postby HexenMapper » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:47 pm

Rachael wrote:I am not here to argue with you. You can't force YOUR preferences on other people, no matter how compelling you think they are.

Great lets have a discussion instead. I've suggested most newcomers will be used to WASD. This is shown in the standard bindings of many modern games. If you have some evidence to refute this fact, please state your case.
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Rachael wrote:The cursor was chosen as a thematic semblance to Doom - Doom's "storyline" so to speak deals with Doom Guy's pet rabbit Daisy.

I'm aware of the significance, but it should be available as an optional extra rather than the default. Usability should take precedence over nodding to dooms "storyline".

I guess this comes down to what you want to present to someone who first downloads GZDoom. At the moment that is: windowed, filtered, no modern bindings, weird cursor, 100+ settings to wade through to get doom looking vanilla.
Its not a great start, but if that's the way you guys like to present it, you're the guys who made it so its you're prerogative to present it how you like.
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