[Why?] Extended nodes

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Postby Killo Zapit » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:57 pm

Yes, being a woman IS nothing to be ashamed about. You don't need to hide the truth from us Randy. We will still love you.

... I'll shut up now.

But seriously, from what I have seen of randomlag, I am not the least bit surprised he would say something like that. Saddened? Yes. Surprised? No.
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Postby randomlag » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:17 am

randy wrote:
randomlag wrote:Grow up Graf. Perhaps too many female hormones - let's just say you talk like a woman :) ... Truth be told, I can't stand the speeches of females

It makes me sad to see you initially request support for your node format but later attempt to insult Graf Zahl by calling him a woman, as if there is something inherently wrong with being a woman. I don't care if you thought you were joking. It's not funny. Approximately half the world's population is female, and being a woman is nothing to be ashamed about. And calling a man a woman is a stupid way to intimidate him.

LOL. Here Graf is insulting ME a billion ways [ that's ok eh? ], yet you can't take a joke about his manner of always putting people down.

ALL of you need to get objective and not get in a polically correct mode [ the death of all things as they really exist in the US ]. If you've ever been married that comment would have made sense in a fun way. If you've never been married or been with a female for a long time, then it wouldn't make sense - and lack of knowlege does not give you the right to judge.

It's not about being ashamed to be a woman, it's about female hormones. That's a simple fact that even all women know about [hence the term "bitch" - please don't go off on that, it's a very common usage]. Geez. Not knowing and understanding something should make you ask me. Instead, you think you have the right to be judgemental and way off base.

I stand by my comment for the reasons explained. Many women at a certain time of the month are totally irrational :wink: It's a fact!. So to those of you who did not know this good luck. Has nothing to do with anything else at all. And some men have the same problem - just not as well documented. It's the physiology of humans and makes us what we are. Hence the allusion to gender.

[And thanks for not sticking and answering the main issue. That was the whole intent of Graf's flames - to derail an objective discussion. Interestingly when people don't understand something they want to latch onto something they think they understand and then make invalid conclusions from there. Nothing I can do about that but explain.

If you or anyone think I influenced the decision, then you should go ahead and ask the port authors and see if I've tainted it. Or if they actually all by themselves made up their own mind. Sorry, but I don't think I have that much influence over that. If you don't do that, then don't presume, that would be very unfair.

If you actualy read the forums, including the one with Apted, you'd realize that I had very little to do with their decision. So although you have a fanboy, that doesn't mean he speaks the truth ]
Last edited by randomlag on Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:07 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Postby randomlag » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:35 am

David Ferstat wrote:But it's the people who create the ports that decide what happens here. Unless you can convince them that there is an overwhelming advantage, to both the ports and the community, in converging the ports (because, let's face it, this is the logical extension of this proposal) then they're simply not going to put in what is, when you look at the whole picture, an awful lot of work.

Sadly you've totally misunderstood and concluded incorrectly. It's not a logical extension at all. I'm also amazed you think that other "insults" from Graf are just fine? And that you don't understand hormone issues. Interesting but disappointing.

And you really don't understand what I've written. I never said anything about attempting to converge ports. In fact, I said the opposite - read it again. What is happening here is you "thinking" what I said vs what I actually said.

The goal is merely to standardize a basic element of lump design. And along the same lines, some of the other lumps as MAPINFO, DECORATE, SNDINFO, etc can easily be made a standard format. Not that a port has to support each and every thing, but at least that the lump name is the same and that the syntax is the same. The features supported are up to each port. In fact, at this very moment I'm pushing DECORATE for LEGACY since they are at a crossing point and it made sense to introduce. I only talk about attempts to consolidate if there's a point in a port where there are changes being made in an area that could be sort of standardized as described. And that's what I did here back when.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with DeePsea nor DeePBSP. In fact, one of the reasons for the simpler standard is to get the other nodebuilders to quickly adopt them. GLBSP is coming out with V5 GL nodes for exactly that reason.

And since Graf keeps repeating the obvious, it's true "I reserve the right to criticise things I don't like" or actually think can be made simpler. What true for the goose is true for the gander. Now why exactly can't I criticise again?

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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:57 am

randomlag wrote:
randy wrote:
randomlag wrote:Grow up Graf. Perhaps too many female hormones - let's just say you talk like a woman :) ... Truth be told, I can't stand the speeches of females

It makes me sad to see you initially request support for your node format but later attempt to insult Graf Zahl by calling him a woman, as if there is something inherently wrong with being a woman. I don't care if you thought you were joking. It's not funny. Approximately half the world's population is female, and being a woman is nothing to be ashamed about. And calling a man a woman is a stupid way to intimidate him.

LOL. Here Graf is insulting ME a billion ways [ that's ok eh? ], yet you can't take a joke about his manner of always putting people down.



I am insulting you? Please tell me where. If I wanted to insult you I would write:

Randomlag is a brain amputated retarded fuckhead who should rot in hell!

or something like that. That would be an insult that would be appropriate to your behavior. But I am not such a person. I only called you an idiot after you started to trade insults.

If you are insulted by just a disagreement in opinion you are an utterly pathetic individual who doesn't deserve any better.

It is utterly impossible do discuss anything with you because you persistently ridicule everyone who disagrees with you and continuously drag other disagreements into the discussion just to discredit that person that dares to defy you. Well, to bad. I don't back down just because I happen to challenge your superiority complex!

I can't remember a single discussion everywhere where anyone happened to disagree with you where you did not try to ridicule that person in one way or another. Even your smug 'LOL's' in front of many sentences and your careful placement of smilies only reinforce that attitude.

Bottom line: I think you are a disgrace to the entire Doom community. It's too bad that they have to put up with you due to your shitty overpriced editor. If that thing didn't exist I'm sure you'd have been permanently banned on every Doom related site imaginable. But I think some people (especially port developers) are too scared that you might pull support for their programs if that happened.
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Postby randomlag » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:01 am

Nice description of yourself again :lol: Hormones again :?:

What you think is Ridicule is just your own insecurity Graf. It's just about a freeking other way of doing things. BFD. And I didn't insult you at all till[as always] you couldn't handle it. Disagreeing with you is not the same as insulting you - except that you clearly take it so.

If you put as much effort into being objective and sticking to the topic vs flying off the handle, none of this would happen. Try to control yourself.

PS: I have a hard time believing you are 35 or 36?
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:16 am

See what I mean:

Smug, glib and arrogant.

The problem is I can't think of anything I could say that would reach the parts of your brain that I wanted to reach so I won't try.

Anyway, since I have no desire to drag that discussion at Newdoom down I'll ask here.

What did poor Tiealk say to deserve your dismissive reaction to a sensible solution? Others were responding to it by suggesting to improve it but what happens then?

Randomlag (aka. Deepteam) comes along, blabbers endless paragraphs of presumptuous nonsense (and I mean nonsense because you weren't making any sense whatsoever!) and tries to dismiss it for questionable reasons that only serve yourself. See, you are the only person who was bothered by this suggestion.
So please don't tell me it's just me. You are doing the same stuff to others as well. Just because they don't fight back with the same force I do doesn't make your obnoxious behavior acceptable.

Since you added stuff to your post since I started writing this..

randomlag wrote:What you think is Ridicule is just your own insecurity Graf. It's just about a freeking other way of doing things. BFD. And I didn't insult you at all till[as always] you couldn't handle it. Disagreeing with you is not the same as insulting you - except that you clearly take it so.


You don't just disagree. If I had just a disagreement with someone it wouldn't devolve into a pissing contest. I have had my disagreements with others as well but those discussions remained civilized most of the time - the exception mostly being your appearence with your typical glib ridiculing remarks.

If you put as much effort into being objective and sticking to the topic vs flying off the handle, none of this would happen. Try to control yourself.



Don't lecture me about objectivity. That is something someone can tell me who doesn't have an agenda as big as yours.

PS: I have a hard time believing you are 35 or 36?


You know, better be 35 and be taken for 25 (or less) than being compared to a lying cheating career politician you don't believe a word he is saying.
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Postby randomlag » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:32 am

You are funny, I'll give you that.

You are afraid to post that at NEWDOOM and so you come here to carry on in a manner that would get you banned there. Go ahead Graf, let's see how you fare there in the same way you post here. Let's see who is actually the one who gets banned. That would quickly answer who is the one that can't control themselves in a discussion.

If you thought his idea was the right one, then why didn't you say so there? Mmmm - very odd. The real problem with that idea was that it was very port specific and hence would go counter to the concept of having things be more similar vs very different. OTOH if ZDOOM did the same thing, that would work and I suggested a cooperative effort in that direction.

What I described is exactly the code I did to accomplish what was being talked about. Nothing presumptuous at all and not nonsense. Too bad I can prove that. Ive worked with the JDOOM code for God's sake, how else did I get the DECORATE and non-visible objects, editing features etc to work?

Forget it Graf, I'm not talking anymore about that here. Have some BALLS and discuss this at NEWDOOM. This has nothing to do with ZDOOM, just your little agenda of trivia. Hardly worth my time.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:50 am

You are afraid to post that at NEWDOOM and so you come here to carry on in a manner that would get you banned there. Go ahead Graf, let's see how you fare there in the same way you post here. Let's see who is actually the one who gets banned. That would quickly answer who is the one that can't control themselves in a discussion.


I didn't say anything there because I don't have any desire whatsoever to drag a thread about a meaningful discussion down.

Unlike you I don't lack the common decency to keep our personal fight out of that thread. It doesn't belong there because it is completely off-topic. But you can't stop it, can you? Every single of your posts there directed to me is an apparent attempt to discredit me. That's just purely pathetic but it really doesn't surprise me.

I don't want to start fights with you everywhere we meet. You on the other hand do. I can't remember one single discussion in recent times where you did not attack me when you saw a chance to do it. And you act surprised that my reaction gets increasingly hostile when it happens? Grow up!

If you thought his idea was the right one, then why didn't you say so there? Mmmm - very odd. The real problem with that idea was that it was very port specific and hence would go counter to the concept of having things be more similar vs very different. OTOH if ZDOOM did the same thing, that would work and I suggested a cooperative effort in that direction.


Ok, you asked for it. I'll copy the text from there and post it here in the feature suggestions. Satisfied?
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Postby randomlag » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:02 pm

Trust me you ARE IMAGINING THINGS

Maybe that should make you think about what you post to others since you always berate people on a personal level. Last topic was the hot ip download idea. Talk about negative feedback :)

I just explain things in as factual a matter as I can. Just the nuts and bolts. It may or may not agree with you, but like you, I think I have the right to express my opinion eh :)

Try it with me for once - just don't take disagreement as anything personal. It's all pretty much just trying out ideas.

You could post here, but that's sort of weird. Why not KISS and point anyone interested (I doubt many are) to the thread instead so you can't monkey around with the posts with some interpretation that is not valid. Like this:

http://forums.newdoom.com/showthread.ph ... ge=2&pp=20

As anyone can plainly see, I'm pushing for DECORATE :idea:
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:43 pm

randomlag wrote:Trust me you ARE IMAGINING THINGS

Maybe that should make you think about what you post to others since you always berate people on a personal level. Last topic was the hot ip download idea. Talk about negative feedback :)


Ok, I overreacted. But I can admit to it. But I still think that it is a stupid idea.

I just explain things in as factual a matter as I can. Just the nuts and bolts. It may or may not agree with you, but like you, I think I have the right to express my opinion eh :)


What you see as factual other people see as strongly biased. Don't claim that you aren't. Everybody is in some way. And your position as the author of one of the major Doom editor puts you in a position where you may be influenced by the work you have to invest. Please don't deny it. As a professional programmer I have seen this happen way too often and stepped into that trap myself once in a while.


Try it with me for once - just don't take disagreement as anything personal. It's all pretty much just trying out ideas.


I don't take disagreement personal. After all, disagreement is the source for all intense discussion. But what I take personal and what you did over and over and over again is constantly referring to past disagreements in a manner like 'Gee, look at the stupid stuff he said there'. Maybe you don't even notice it but you have a tendency to dismiss opinions that don't match yours even if the majority disagrees with you strongly. Case in point:

http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?t= ... ur&start=9


You could post here, but that's sort of weird. Why not KISS and point anyone interested (I doubt many are) to the thread instead so you can't monkey around with the posts with some interpretation that is not valid. Like this:

http://forums.newdoom.com/showthread.ph ... ge=2&pp=20

As anyone can plainly see, I'm pushing for DECORATE :idea:


Well in that case i am 100% with you and I really don't understand the reluctance of the Legacy team to implement this or something similar.
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Postby randi » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:55 pm

randomlag wrote:I just explain things in as factual a matter as I can. Just the nuts and bolts.

And then you throw in personal insults if someone questions your "facts." And if someone calls you on it, you pretend that they aren't really insults or you were goaded into it doing it. I'm tired of this childish behavior. You've been doing it for years, and your only saving grace has been your position as the author of DeePsea.
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Postby David Ferstat » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:10 pm

OK, in a (probably vain) attempt to bring this thread somewhat back on topic ...

randomlag wrote:
David Ferstat wrote:But it's the people who create the ports that decide what happens here. Unless you can convince them that there is an overwhelming advantage, to both the ports and the community, in converging the ports (because, let's face it, this is the logical extension of this proposal) then they're simply not going to put in what is, when you look at the whole picture, an awful lot of work.


Sadly you've totally misunderstood and concluded incorrectly. It's not a logical extension at all...

Oh? I would have thought that, if all ports supported all other ports' special features, then there would really be little, or no, difference between them. That is the "logical extension" (that is, what you get when you continue the trend) of cross-port compatibility.

And because I, too, have trouble ignoring red rags ...

randomlag also wrote:I'm also amazed you think that other "insults" from Graf are just fine? And that you don't understand hormone issues. Interesting but disappointing.

Oh, really?

randomlag also wrote:Must you take everything on a personal level? Must be a hormone thing and is NOT the way to discuss alternate idea [a concept you might consider]...

Grow up Graf. Perhaps too many female hormones - let's just say you talk like a woman...

...It's your own thin gender skin that's getting in a twit here...

...LOL - you are so apt at describing yourself again [in fact this is a prime example of hormone graf]. Truth be told, I can't stand the speeches of females - happy again?...

...ALL of you need to get objective and not get in a polically correct mode [ the death of all things as they really exist in the US ]. If you've ever been married that comment would have made sense in a fun way. If you've never been married or been with a female for a long time, then it wouldn't make sense - and lack of knowlege does not give you the right to judge.

It's not about being ashamed to be a woman, it's about female hormones. That's a simple fact that even all women know about [hence the term "bitch" - please don't go off on that, it's a very common usage]. Geez. Not knowing and understanding something should make you ask me. Instead, you think you have the right to be judgemental and way off base.

I stand by my comment for the reasons explained. Many women at a certain time of the month are totally irrational It's a fact!. So to those of you who did not know this good luck. Has nothing to do with anything else at all. And some men have the same problem - just not as well documented. It's the physiology of humans and makes us what we are. Hence the allusion to gender...


I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. This is wrong in so many ways that I almost don't know where to start.

First, you insulted (at the very least, by very strong implication) Graf Zahl twice before he said attacked you, by attributing his comments to "hormones", as though he was incapable of addressing the topic in a rational manner. You're not the innocent injured party here.

Second, "... let's just say you talk like a woman ..." implies, from the context, that women are incapable of rational argument, a contention that I know, from long experience, to be false. In fact, my experience has given me better regard for the opinions of most of the women that I know than for those of most of the men that I know.

Third, you confuse gender with physiology. They are not the same. Gender is, very roughly, what a person identifies him- or herself as, while physiology determines his or her body. It is perfectly possible, for example, to have the gender of a woman and the physiology of a man, as was the case of a good friend of mine.

Fourth, "... Truth be told, I can't stand the speeches of females - happy again?..." is just scary. Now, I know you're in America, arguably the most backward advanced country in the world (hey, you still don't use metric measurements, remember), but you are, from memory, in Seattle, which I don't expect to be quite such a bastion of male chauvinism. Whatever the reason, the fact that you sem disinclined to listen to 50% of the population says much about you, and none of it is flattering.

Unfortunately, fifth and beyond, if any, will have to wait, as I'm late for an appointment. However, your comments (I'm understandably loath to call them arguments) are so full of holes that I can't leave them with no response, so I will address them later.
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Postby SingleWoman » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:41 am

As a woman [and proudly so], let me just say that you guys are not too with it. Most women realize what we are. Most men do not realize what they are, no matter what your age is.

Also as a woman I disagree with your assessment of who started what. Again something that our gender as you call it, just has a better skill at then men. Your description of physiology actually confirms what rl wrote. It not about the outward appearance. Meaning you can act like a female and yet be a male. That is really what the comment meant.

And no thanks, but we don't need misinformed males to help us out. We've had enough misunderstanding already. Your post is a good example of typical male posturing thinking they are defending something and are instead building a barrier to understanding us.
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Postby Your Name Is » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:31 am

Randomlag wrote DeePsea?! He deserves to rot! Doombuilder is better and FREE! Plus, it can't export MUS files properly![/antiDeePsea crusader mode]

So, will a new map format make mapping easier or harder?
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Postby Biff » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:33 pm

Your Name Is wrote:Randomlag wrote DeePsea?! He deserves to rot! Doombuilder is better and FREE! Plus, it can't export MUS files properly![/antiDeePsea crusader mode]

So, will a new map format make mapping easier or harder?

I think you have it backward. Doombuilder is clearly a good editor, but the term "better" is subjective. Doombuilder cannot export MUS files at all. DeePsea does export them, and correctly. DeePsea's error checking and correction features are miles ahead of any other I've seen.


SingleWoman wrote:Also as a woman I disagree with your assessment of who started what. Again something that our gender as you call it, just has a better skill at then men.


Hahahaa! This is rich and in fact I see it the same way. Post #2 in this thread. To me, both Graf and RL can argue, posture and toss insults of varying degrees of subtlety with the best of them. You guys rock!
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