[Done] Improved fonts

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Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:59 pm

randomlag wrote:And NO, having another external utility [and poorly documented] is not what we need.


No.

And NO, it's not skimping out having this implemented - but it would be "skimping out" to not implement it - just like any other feature that was created to make editing easier :)


Since you are the only one seeing any real value here I doubt it. This feature does not have a good work-to-benefit ratio. All it will lead to is shitty looking WADs because it's the inexperienced n00bs who will most likely use it - with awful results.

Research what I said to research - the quality is there, so let's drop that argument please.


Maybe but that still won't change the fact that the fonts most likely to be used are Arial etc, IOW stuff that has no place in Doom.
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Postby wildweasel » Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:34 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Maybe but that still won't change the fact that the fonts most likely to be used are Arial etc, IOW stuff that has no place in Doom.

I really hate to jump into the middle of this, but what if the WAD in question was a TC set in an alternate time period and needed some font like Courier New?
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Postby Graf Zahl » Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:23 pm

That's a big 'if'.
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Postby wildweasel » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:54 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:That's a big 'if'.

I do plan to make this mod, and I actually have a work-in-progress bitmapped version of the Courier New font, but I've not even touched anything beyond three of the characters simply because it's such a pain.
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Postby randomlag » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:02 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Since you are the only one seeing any real value here I doubt it.

Lol - I'd call that VERY selective reading Graf. It's very clear that some people would enjoy this very much. :lol: [suggest rereading the posts]

As to the rest, you've again merely avoided objective points and shifted to subjective opinion. Whether something is good or bad is hardly for you to judge - that's up to the author.

That same "noobie" author would probably make a crappy level too. So what? However, the fonts are actually way better looking than that crap you used for an example. As I said before, LOOK at the code [and some programs that do this] and see what it can do before you resort to just made up stuff that you "think" is how it would be.

As to the work-to-benefit ration - just make believe, not factual. The code is provided by MS for god's sake and certainly a lot less work than some other things I've seen that hardly anyone uses (including special utilities).

Don't be so defensive about an alternative idea. What you did is a quick hack and actually not all that beneficial if you think about it. Why? Because it's much simpler just to replace the stock fonts for most people. Only a few would go to all that work much less understand it.

By your own admission, the fonts that are supposed to be so different are actually pretty much the same - because it's hard to make good looking alternate fonts for most people [no matter how many examples I see here]. The reason is the same reason you see relatively few custom sprites - it takes experience and talent.

And Arial can look quite cool in 3D form :roll:
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Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:27 am

randomlag wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Since you are the only one seeing any real value here I doubt it.

Lol - I'd call that VERY selective reading Graf. It's very clear that some people would enjoy this very much. :lol: [suggest rereading the posts]


Maybe. But it still won't improve the results. Just because it is your idea doesn't make it good.

As to the rest, you've again merely avoided objective points and shifted to subjective opinion. Whether something is good or bad is hardly for you to judge - that's up to the author.


No, it's for the program's author to decide. There are some features that would be cool from a user's point of view but they aren't implemented for good reasons.

That same "noobie" author would probably make a crappy level too. So what? However, the fonts are actually way better looking than that crap you used for an example. As I said before, LOOK at the code [and some programs that do this] and see what it can do before you resort to just made up stuff that you "think" is how it would be.


Those fonts aren't 'crap'. They were pulled from a few WADs from which I knew they had a custom system font. Too bad that I didn't want to browse through hundreds of WADs to find one that might please the mighty Randomlag. :P

Don't be so defensive about an alternative idea. What you did is a quick hack and actually not all that beneficial if you think about it. Why? Because it's much simpler just to replace the stock fonts for most people. Only a few would go to all that work much less understand it.


Yeah, whatever. It's still useful but since the idea isn't from you it has to be bad. Typical.

By your own admission, the fonts that are supposed to be so different are actually pretty much the same - because it's hard to make good looking alternate fonts for most people [no matter how many examples I see here]. The reason is the same reason you see relatively few custom sprites - it takes experience and talent.


For the final time:

I PULLED SOME FONTS AT RANDOM FROM A FEW WADS! THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE PERFECT EXAMPLES TO USE THIS FEATURE!!!!!

Remember what I wrote more than a year ago:

§1 RandomLag always got to have the last word.
§2 RandomLag is always right
§3 When in doubt, see §2



I still stand by that.


And frankly I am sick of your constant attempts to devalue other people's work just to present your own ideas as the greatest invention ever. Do I remind you of the extended nodes issue last year? I still can't see what makes your suggestions so inherently better than ZDoom's format.

Don't forget: I offered this code for free and all the work involved in adding it to ZDoom would be a little cutting and pasting. And regardless of what you think: Most fonts which are usable in Doom are in the same format as the system font. This allows anyone to use them without hassle - something that wasn't possible before.
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Postby randi » Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:41 am

Hihi. I will lock this now before it gets out of hand. Graf Zahl gave the best reason to use his code right here:
Graf Zahl wrote:I did it because I needed the functionality to recolor Doom's status numbers
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