[No (hopefully)] Auto-Update

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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:54 am

And the next version won't be either!
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Postby Chilvence » Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:00 am

Chilvence cry. Stop making the mouth words :(
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Postby Infurnus » Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:42 am

Maybe it could be activated with a new cvar... like, say... cl_updatenotify. When set to 1, the next time you start ZDoom, a pop-up box would say "There is a new version of ZDoom available. Click Here for more information."

EDIT: Also, don't call it ZSteam, and I don't think you need a server... you could make it so it tries to read a file on ZDoom.org that has the version number of the latest update... and if the info is newer than what you have, it asks you if you want to update.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:02 am

Infurnus wrote:Maybe it could be activated with a new cvar... like, say... cl_updatenotify. When set to 1, the next time you start ZDoom, a pop-up box would say "There is a new version of ZDoom available. Click Here for more information."

EDIT: Also, don't call it ZSteam, and I don't think you need a server... you could make it so it tries to read a file on ZDoom.org that has the version number of the latest update... and if the info is newer than what you have, it asks you if you want to update.


The next person who simply ignores the traffic on the web site this will generate...

Just a little reminder: A web site costs money - especially if there's a lot of activity! I have no clue what Randy's conditions are but a few thousand requests per day can add up significantly.

And: I call it what it is.
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Postby Chris » Sun Mar 27, 2005 10:48 am

Graf Zahl wrote:This is not about a 1kb text file. This is about the traffic it generates. I think you are grossly underestimating this.

I think the traffic these forums generate, especially when you get bitchy like this, is much much more than what ZDoom users checking a file < 1kb in size once a day (at most) would generate.

And the average user's reaction will be: 'This software sucks! Every now and then it will make me update to a buggy version! No, thank you!

Such confidence in Randy to produce stable code.. :sadno:

That doesn't matter. You can't make auto-updates without thoroughly testing the version BEFORE making the new version available. And that cannot happen - for obvious reasons!

Then what about letting it hang around for a while for those of us that do check regularly to test before giving a "thumbs up"?

Yes, but these are no small one-man hobby projects. These are big and important products that generate a lot of revenue which justifies the work involved in maintaining such a system. ZDoom is programmed and maintained by one person in his free time so any effort that went into such a system (and be it the regular maintenance work only) is better spent elsewhere.

So, things like Portage, GAIM, Guifications, and all those freeware apps that have auto-update notifications are just wasting their time?

Just because something looks neat on the surface it doesn't mean that it is nonsense if you dig deeper.

I still haven't seen any good reasons, honestly. Traffic is a non-issue, with as much as these forums and main site generate. It's not hard to code if you get a library or find some pre-written code to do it for you (I don't imagine it to be hard to find code that downloads a file off of a website). It would be a convenience for those that don't want to jump onto every new version because of potential bugs (they can wait for a notification), and it'd help those that don't check regularly (so they're aware of new versions in case they run into problems).

And of course:

No ZSteam, please!


(because that's what it is essentially.)

Steam is just a notification box? :?
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Postby wildweasel » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:39 am

Steam is merely a front-end that checks for updates before it will let you play your beloved game, occasionally taking several minutes to respond. I do not want anything like that in my ZDoom.

If for any reason I am not happy with my current version of ZDoom, then I will be checking the forums anyway for signs of activity. As for the supposed "outdated bug reports" solution: BS. There will always be people running an old version of ZDoom for whatever reason, and these people will occasionally be stupid enough to report bugs with that version instead of checking for a newer one. There will always be people too lazy to check the console to see what version they have - and with automatic updating, it'll be too hard to keep track of what version one is currently running.

If something is idiot-proof, there will be better idiots.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 11:43 am

Chris wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:This is not about a 1kb text file. This is about the traffic it generates. I think you are grossly underestimating this.

I think the traffic these forums generate, especially when you get bitchy like this, is much much more than what ZDoom users checking a file < 1kb in size once a day (at most) would generate.


Well, I don't know how many people use ZDoom daily, you don't know and Randy doesn't know. It may be 100, it may be 1000, but it may easily be 10000! So every single one of those users who happens to have an active internet connection will connect to ZDoom every single day. It may 'just' be 1 kb (or even less) per request but judging from the average activity on this forum it may be too much if this happens every day. Only Randy can tell. But from experience I can tell that it is these trivial things that regularly bring web servers down due to overload.

And the average user's reaction will be: 'This software sucks! Every now and then it will make me update to a buggy version! No, thank you!

Such confidence in Randy to produce stable code.. :sadno:


I'm only stating a fact. Of the last 7 versions 5 have to be considered unstable betas and none of them is the 'official latest build'!
And here's probably the most important issue of all: What kind of user should such an update system be designed for? The average n00b, who would probably ditch ZDoom if he got some buggy development betas from time to time, the developers who would keep their version up to date anyway or guys like you who apparently can't be bothered to check for updates manually?

An update system makes sense if there were stable and fully tested new 'official' versions of the product available on a regular basis. For obvious reasons this is not the case for ZDoom and in the end automatic notifications are useless either because it is too risky to notify for each single beta which might be gone after a day or because it'd take too long after the release. And don't forget that the 'official' release today is still the same as it was 8 months ago. Any of the subsequent version shouldn't even qualify for notification by that logic.

Yes, but these are no small one-man hobby projects. These are big and important products that generate a lot of revenue which justifies the work involved in maintaining such a system. ZDoom is programmed and maintained by one person in his free time so any effort that went into such a system (and be it the regular maintenance work only) is better spent elsewhere.

So, things like Portage, GAIM, Guifications, and all those freeware apps that have auto-update notifications are just wasting their time?


Are those one-man niche products with a rather small user base or are they larger in scope and developed by bigger teams? That alone can make a big difference.

Just because something looks neat on the surface it doesn't mean that it is nonsense if you dig deeper.

I still haven't seen any good reasons, honestly. Traffic is a non-issue, with as much as these forums and main site generate. It's not hard to code if you get a library or find some pre-written code to do it for you (I don't imagine it to be hard to find code that downloads a file off of a website). It would be a convenience for those that don't want to jump onto every new version because of potential bugs (they can wait for a notification), and it'd help those that don't check regularly (so they're aware of new versions in case they run into problems).


Why do you persistently say that traffic is not a problem? I say it is because it will happen constantly. Of course we only can tell if this is really done but then it may be too late. But in case that this should ever happen I'd ban ZDoom from accessing the internet forever so the (non-)feature would be useless for me (and most certainly many others) anyway.

And of course:

No ZSteam, please!


(because that's what it is essentially.)

Steam is just a notification box? :?[/quote]

No, Steam is the root of evil and I don't want to see even a small shred of it in ZDoom. I am highly suspicious of software that accesses the internet without asking me and I normally block those at first sight unless I really trust them - and that is rare.
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Postby QBasicer » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:05 pm

I am highly suspicious of software that accesses the internet without asking me and I normally block those at first sight unless I really trust them - and that is rare.

Which is exactly why we want to have an option to disable it.

This is not about a 1kb text file. This is about the traffic it generates. I think you are grossly underestimating this.

Why not just record that last time an update was checked, and if it's been more then 24 hours, then check for an update. That would reduce the bandwidth quite a bit? Or even better, a user customizable setting for updates (from 1 hour, to 1 month). Doesn't that sound more reasonable?

But in case that this should ever happen I'd ban ZDoom from accessing the internet forever so the (non-)feature would be useless for me (and most certainly many others) anyway.
I guess somebody doesn't like playing online games with others.

By the way Graf, do you use Windows? Do you use Windows update?
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:11 pm

charris wrote:
I am highly suspicious of software that accesses the internet without asking me and I normally block those at first sight unless I really trust them - and that is rare.

Which is exactly why we want to have an option to disable it.


Then everybody will disable it and it will become useless. :mrgreen:

This is not about a 1kb text file. This is about the traffic it generates. I think you are grossly underestimating this.

Why not just record that last time an update was checked, and if it's been more then 24 hours, then check for an update. That would reduce the bandwidth quite a bit? Or even better, a user customizable setting for updates (from 1 hour, to 1 month). Doesn't that sound more reasonable?


If the user can set it you have to calculate the stupidity factor - something Randy's Server might not like...

But in case that this should ever happen I'd ban ZDoom from accessing the internet forever so the (non-)feature would be useless for me (and most certainly many others) anyway.
I guess somebody doesn't like playing online games with others.

By the way Graf, do you use Windows? Do you use Windows update?

[/quote]

Sadly, WindowsXP bugs me if I completely disable Windows Update so I have set it to the least intrusive setting that doesn't. I'd rather do it manually. I really don't like software that alters itself this way.
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Postby QBasicer » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:20 pm

Then everybody will disable it and it will become useless.
That's up to the user, isn't it?
If the user can set it you have to calculate the stupidity factor - something Randy's Server might not like...

I guess we'll not use Randy's server then, will we?
Sadly, WindowsXP bugs me if I completely disable Windows Update so I have set it to the least intrusive setting that doesn't. I'd rather do it manually. I really don't like software that alters itself this way.

I have it set so that it pops up and says: "Hey you, you have an update." Acutally it's one of those balloons, but you get the picture. I wouldn't want anything to be set to install something that I don't know about, so I always review what it's installing.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:52 pm

charris wrote:I have it set so that it pops up and says: "Hey you, you have an update." Acutally it's one of those balloons, but you get the picture. I wouldn't want anything to be set to install something that I don't know about, so I always review what it's installing.



Same here. Having this done automatically would give me the creeps.
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Postby QBasicer » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:02 pm

Why can't we just the same principle for updates? It could at least *TELL* you there's an update.
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Postby Mannequin » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:03 pm

Why not just make a front-end that checks the lars directory, and notifies you if there is a higher version of ZDoom available?

This solves two problems:
1. The people who don't want it, don't have to download it.
2. The people who want it, get it.

This still has the problem of server over-activity, but if you program it to check once a week, month, or year it won't be as bad as every hour or every 24 hours. :)

(Geeze, it was tiring just reading this thread... :? )

-M.
Last edited by Mannequin on Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby QBasicer » Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:04 pm

I have bandwidth to burn.
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Postby Chris » Sun Mar 27, 2005 8:38 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:The average n00b, who would probably ditch ZDoom if he got some buggy development betas from time to time, the developers who would keep their version up to date anyway or guys like you who apparently can't be bothered to check for updates manually?

First and third. And for the newb, we'd let those who like running the latest to check for bugs to give an "ok" before randy marks it as new on the server. Or perhaps, there could even be an option "check for latest development", "check for latest ok'd", "check for latest stable", and "don't check". It'd popup a box asking the first time you run a version that checks, and set a cvar.

So, things like Portage, GAIM, Guifications, and all those freeware apps that have auto-update notifications are just wasting their time?


Are those one-man niche products with a rather small user base or are they larger in scope and developed by bigger teams? That alone can make a big difference.

Portage is the only one that I'd say is developed by bigger teams.. and that may be questionable (depending on your definition of "bigger"). I can count the number of GAIM developers on my hands, and I'd be surprised if Guifications is more than one or two people (since it's only a plugin for GAIM).

No, Steam is the root of evil and I don't want to see even a small shred of it in ZDoom. I am highly suspicious of software that accesses the internet without asking me and I normally block those at first sight unless I really trust them - and that is rare.

You don't seem to trust a lot of Windows software, then (back when I had Zonealarm, it asked me about quite a few programs accessing the internet that I had no clue had been accessing it), yet you seem to still use Windows.
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