Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Moderator: GZDoom Developers
Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
This thread is to continue the discussion regarding texture filtering from this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=59971
The proposal is to disable it and set GZDoom to default to neighbor filtering, to make it look more Doom-like.
The proposal is to disable it and set GZDoom to default to neighbor filtering, to make it look more Doom-like.
- Graf Zahl
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
All I will say here is that the defaults is what I like. If I wanted I'd have changed them 10 years ago.
And if there's one thing the survey told me is that the opinion here on the forum may not necessarily match what the regular users prefer, best exemplified in the low 10% share of software renderer users overall.
And if there's one thing the survey told me is that the opinion here on the forum may not necessarily match what the regular users prefer, best exemplified in the low 10% share of software renderer users overall.
Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
I am far and well capable of running the latest OpenGL features, yet I still prefer nearest neighbour.
- Graf Zahl
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
And that's all it is: A preference. I happen to disagree with you on that.
Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Graf is 100% correct, however the issue is what the default really should be.
And to be honest, I don't think there's a correct answer for this. And this thread may end up getting closed based on that, alone. GZDoom was never developed with the preferences of popular demand in mind, it always focused on utility and customization first.
To think that mere defaults have come to such a hot button issue is a bit unsettling but nothing to get too worried over, I suppose. Needless to say, much as I'd like the preference to be the other way around, in the end it really doesn't matter and it doesn't affect me because it's easy enough for me to change it to my liking.
And to be honest, I don't think there's a correct answer for this. And this thread may end up getting closed based on that, alone. GZDoom was never developed with the preferences of popular demand in mind, it always focused on utility and customization first.
To think that mere defaults have come to such a hot button issue is a bit unsettling but nothing to get too worried over, I suppose. Needless to say, much as I'd like the preference to be the other way around, in the end it really doesn't matter and it doesn't affect me because it's easy enough for me to change it to my liking.
- m8f
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Sorry to break into the conversation, but I need to share one observation, because it was a surprise for me. Many users don't even know that there is an option. They see "Options" in the main menu, but just never open it! It happens not only with GZDoom, but with other programs too. Users are often surprised when they hear that they can change something in program. Typical dialog is:
User: I don't like this program. It does thing X.
Developer: Just change X to Y in the settings.
User: What settings?
The solution for this problem can be showing some "Welcome" screen at the first run. Something like this: "Thank you for using GZDoom! GZDoom is a modern source port for Doom games. It is highly configurable. You can change how game looks in Options->Display Options, Options->Set Video Mode and Options->Change rendering output. Also you can set up keys in Option->Customize Controls.".
This would give the new user two advantages:
- user knows that there is an option.
- user knows where to look for this option.
User: I don't like this program. It does thing X.
Developer: Just change X to Y in the settings.
User: What settings?
The solution for this problem can be showing some "Welcome" screen at the first run. Something like this: "Thank you for using GZDoom! GZDoom is a modern source port for Doom games. It is highly configurable. You can change how game looks in Options->Display Options, Options->Set Video Mode and Options->Change rendering output. Also you can set up keys in Option->Customize Controls.".
This would give the new user two advantages:
- user knows that there is an option.
- user knows where to look for this option.
- HexenMapper
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Yep you guys have your preferences, you guys made the port, so no amount of feedback has to be taken on board. A poll would be great, but I don't know if there is much point if the outcome goes against the lead dev's preferences.
Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
These are the posts I want to see more of.m8f wrote:Sorry to break into the conversation, but I need to share one observation, because it was a surprise for me. Many users don't even know that there is an option. They see "Options" in the main menu, but just never open it! It happens not only with GZDoom, but with other programs too. Users are often surprised when they hear that they can change something in program. Typical dialog is:
User: I don't like this program. It does thing X.
Developer: Just change X to Y in the settings.
User: What settings?
The solution for this problem can be showing some "Welcome" screen at the first run. Something like this: "Thank you for using GZDoom! GZDoom is a modern source port for Doom games. It is highly configurable. You can change how game looks in Options->Display Options, Options->Set Video Mode and Options->Change rendering output. Also you can set up keys in Option->Customize Controls.".
This would give the new user two advantages:
- user knows that there is an option.
- user knows where to look for this option.
Ideas with possible solutions, not complaints, not arguments.
- Graf Zahl
- Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
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- Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:19 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
It is sometimes hard for intelligent people to remember that some people tend to glance over the most obvious things - like reading the manual of some gadget they bought. No wonder if they can't use it...
Even if in this case, one of the main menu's options is clearly labeled "OPTIONS"!
It may indeed be a good idea if the engine forces a start on the options menu if no config can be found with a welcome message up front, so that even the most stubborn of people see what is there.
Even if in this case, one of the main menu's options is clearly labeled "OPTIONS"!
It may indeed be a good idea if the engine forces a start on the options menu if no config can be found with a welcome message up front, so that even the most stubborn of people see what is there.
- m8f
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Forcing a start on the option menu can be a bit overkill because:Graf Zahl wrote:... if the engine forces a start on the options menu if no config can be found with a welcome message up front, so that even the most stubborn of people see what is there.
- some people want to play immediately, and going to options will delay playing,
- some people may like default settings and they don't need to go to settings.
- Graf Zahl
- Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
I think more about a message like
"GZDoom is run for the first time. Do you want to set up your configuration? Yes/No".
Yes, it's one click more, but it'd only be once at the first start. Sometimes people need a gentle push into the right direction.
"GZDoom is run for the first time. Do you want to set up your configuration? Yes/No".
Yes, it's one click more, but it'd only be once at the first start. Sometimes people need a gentle push into the right direction.
- Zenon
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
How and why does this subject keep going from
"Lets simply have filters turned off by default, since the majority of players think they look fugly"
to something requiring more effort than needed for what we're wanting, like the big config screen for first time players?
Back on the topic of filters, I think they should've been off by default in the beginning because it's what Doom is meant to look like, not turned on merely because it's Graf's preference.
Why is there such a big deal with having it turned off as a default? It's only one click more for Graf to turn them back on again in his display options.
"Lets simply have filters turned off by default, since the majority of players think they look fugly"
to something requiring more effort than needed for what we're wanting, like the big config screen for first time players?
Back on the topic of filters, I think they should've been off by default in the beginning because it's what Doom is meant to look like, not turned on merely because it's Graf's preference.
Why is there such a big deal with having it turned off as a default? It's only one click more for Graf to turn them back on again in his display options.
- nazakomu
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
not only for graf, but also for the aforementioned brutal doom players that don't visit this forumZenon wrote:It's only one more click for Graf to turn them back on again in his display options.
the same brutal doom players that very likely use zandronum instead of gzdoom anyway
Last edited by nazakomu on Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
- m8f
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Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
I agree. This is not forcing.Graf Zahl wrote:Do you want to set up your configuration? Yes/No
Summary: we don't know the opinion of the majority, because majority is silent, and there is no way to get this data (without telemetry, and telemetry is a big no). There are people who like defaults, people who don't like them, and there are people who don't care and accept whatever they get. The sizes of those three groups are unknown. Forum poll results are statistically irrelevant because of the low number of participants.Zenon wrote:How and why does this subject keep going from
"Lets simply have filters turned off by default, since the majority of players think they look fugly"
to something requiring more effort than needed for what we're wanting, in this case big config screen for first time players?
Re: Sprite Smoothing/Texture Filtering defaults
Why is it such a big deal whether it's set one way or another as a DEFAULT that you can change?Zenon wrote:Why is there such a big deal with having it turned off as a default? It's only one click more for Graf to turn them back on again in his display options.
You simply cannot force Graf to change his mind, and I will not tolerate any attempt to do so.