Default Keybindings Presets

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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Rachael » Tue May 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Is there even a point to providing a left-handed configuration considering we can't even come to agree about it? I say no. Not many other games provide it either, and likely for the reason that the right hand side of different keyboard layouts is so inconsistent with laptops that it makes no sense.

Let's just stick a "default Doom" preset and a "WASD" preset and be done with it. If we do provide a lefty configuration then the 8456 numpad configuration makes some sense, simply because 101-103 key keyboards (aka "Model M") are way more common than any single laptop keyboard layout ever conceived. Luckily, 8456 can be merged with WASD on the same layout and cause little interference.

Either way though, this is getting really deep into bikeshedding territory and in the end all it's ever going to do is annoy everyone.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Wed May 20, 2020 3:35 am

Agree, i thought it was a good idea to add a left config but turns out it wasn't. The flight keys are not an issue for desktop keyboards and i could assign only one key to stop flying anyway. But there's another problem, direct selection of weapons with the normal numeric keys. They are already too far for OKL; and ever farther with the keypad. Then WASD is not optimal either for weapon selection but with ESDF you can accidentaly activate the touchpad unless you disable it. And i believe laptops are far more popular nowadays than desktops.
There's already support for a left config in Raze but looking into it you move forward and back with the arrows and then sideways with keypad 7 and 9, you jump and crouch with A and C and so on. You're supposed to use the mouse with the left hand, i'm not sure that using both hands and feet would make it unless i'm missing something. :P
And then there's a new problem: should the left config be included in WASD or be a separate preset? :lol:
So yeah may be the best "solution" would be to keep just WASD (most common) and Classic Doom.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Gez » Wed May 20, 2020 3:50 am

Is bikeshedding really a problem here? I don't think we've got a hard limit of two presets max. Certainly we're not gonna bother with, e.g. three different WASD variants that differ in how they bound the jump key or whatever, but having an array like "Classic, WASD, ESDF, 8456" isn't going to overload a new user.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Wed May 20, 2020 4:12 am

Okay, four presets then? Now what to do with direct weapon selection for the keypad preset?
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Nash » Wed May 20, 2020 5:41 am

WASD and classic, just like EDuke32 and Rage.

Graf/Rachael: plant your feet down and/or close the discussion before everyone posts their pro-gamer layout. :^)
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Wed May 20, 2020 6:14 am

And then i would create another topic. Now i've actually started to do it and there's a minor issue:
With the old code defbinds.txt was the common part for all games (there were additional common binds for each game in their subfolders) and then i added other optional files for other layouts. Now there's only one commonbinds.txt file for all games. So i'll have to copy identical files for Heretic and Hexen with different names. And i can't add those game specific bindings to commonbinds.txt.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Rachael » Wed May 20, 2020 7:28 am

Nash wrote:WASD and classic, just like EDuke32 and Rage.

Graf/Rachael: plant your feet down and/or close the discussion before everyone posts their pro-gamer layout. :^)


Gez wrote:Is bikeshedding really a problem here? I don't think we've got a hard limit of two presets max. Certainly we're not gonna bother with, e.g. three different WASD variants that differ in how they bound the jump key or whatever, but having an array like "Classic, WASD, ESDF, 8456" isn't going to overload a new user.

When it gets to a point where everyone starts posting their layouts because they want their layout included - yes it is an issue - and no, 2 isn't a hard max, but there's a lot to be said for the "KISS" (aka "Keep It Simple, Stupid!") principle especially for the end-user. Overwhelming them with 20 different people's layouts is going to help literally no one.

That being said, WASD and 8456 can be merged together into a single layout. I can see some merit to ESDF because it's what DoomBuilder uses, but that's getting a little too much into the "extras" territory. IJKL might make sense for very short laptop keyboards, but again the same with ESDF, though I'll capitulate that it's less as much of an "extra" than ESDF is. Beyond that, though, what Nash posted is what I really want to avoid. Everyone is going to post their layouts, and then they're going to get pissed because we said no. And that's going to cause problems.

I'd really prefer to have just 2, maybe 3 default layouts. Lefty and Righty layouts can be merged. This is for new users, not for people who might have their IJKL keys bound to cheats or special CVar changes.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Graf Zahl » Wed May 20, 2020 7:46 am

Rachael wrote:I'd really prefer to have just 2, maybe 3 default layouts. Lefty and Righty layouts can be merged. This is for new users, not for people who might have their IJKL keys bound to cheats or special CVar changes.


No, they can't. I use the WASD keys for other functions and I don't think I'm the only one. If we make the presets too generic it is just as bad as having too many.
Two should be ok, one based on WASD and the other on 8426, but both should bind the cursor keys as well.
I only made a third for Raze because Build's classic layout is garbage for anyone - it's a classic 90's keyboard-only layout that is perfectly useless for playing with mouse and keyboard because it puts too much emphasis on the pitch controls.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Thu May 21, 2020 6:03 am

This is my proposal for leftbinds:
Code: Select allExpand view
KP8 +forward
KP5 +back
KP4 +moveleft
KP6 +moveright
KP7 +jump
KP1 crouch
KP0 +use
UpArrow +forward
DownArrow +back
LeftArrow +moveleft
RightArrow +moveright
mouse2 +altattack
mouse3 +speed
#181 "slot 3" ; KP/
#55 "slot 4" ; KP*
#74 "slot 5" ; KP-
#78 "slot 6" ; KP+
#83 "slot 7" ; KP.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Enjay » Thu May 21, 2020 6:35 am

For me, that actually serves as a good example of why I don't like or use presets. Even though it's set up for a leftie like me who more-or-less uses a config like that, I can already see three keys that I would want bound to something else and a bunch of - for me - unnecessary bindings.

What are we actually trying to achieve by this? Is it just to make life a bit easier for a first-time player to pick a config that is likely to suit them? I certainly don't see much value beyond that and, therefore, a small number of clearly described/titled options make sense IMO.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Thu May 21, 2020 6:40 am

Enjay wrote:a bunch of - for me - unnecessary bindings

Which ones? Those for weapons? Arrows?
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Enjay » Thu May 21, 2020 6:55 am

Mostly the weapon slots in particular strike me as odd and unnecessary. They put slots 3-7 on the keypad but 1 and 2 are (presumably) still on the number keys (and I personally use the mouse wheel 90% of the time for weapon changes anyway).

Speed being on mouse 3 is - again for me - unnecessary. I almost never press the speed button, and I'll happily leave it as a shift key (or a caps-lock toggle) and have mouse3 bound to something (IMO) more useful (I use it for jump).

And while I'm on about the mouse, mouse2 is [use] for me and extra mouse buttons are bound to altattack.


I use the arrows for movement but having them on the KP too is just duplication that I could happily ignore. Although, KP bindings are "dangerous" in as much as laptop or compact keyboards of various types might not even have a keypad. Or it might be one that is accessed via a function key or something with keys "doubling up" their function. Of course, many such keyboards compromise on arrow keys instead.


And to be clear, I mostly saying these things because they illustrate how easily even a well thought out preset quickly comes undone. I neither want nor need a preset tailored to my preferences. So, as long as the policy is that these are intended as a good "best guess" as to how an uninitiated player might want to set things up, and nothing more, I guess it's fair enough. However, that does mean that it really should be kept simple with a limited number of clearly named choices because I suspect that most people will change them sooner or later anyway. Anyone experienced with GZDoom will probably already know how they like to play and I suspect that the presets will be unlikely to match many users' preferences 100%.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby drfrag » Thu May 21, 2020 8:11 am

The mouse wheel it's slow to change weapons so i bound the most important ones there as well. It's not surprising that left handed people also use WASD, not being able to select weapons directly is a major disadvantage IMO.
I should remove the mouse3 binding but not everyone has a 5 button mouse.
I already mentioned that many computers don't even have a keypad, anyway those are additional bindings not present in commonbinds.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Gez » Thu May 21, 2020 9:02 am

The quick presets should be restricted to movement, use, and -- for Hexen and Strife only -- jump. Crouch, alt-attack, and so on should be left unbound by default IMO since they're extra features not originally available. There's no reason to change the weapon select keys or the run key.
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Re: Default Keybindings Presets

Postby Enjay » Thu May 21, 2020 9:15 am

Agreed on the weapon keys and run.

I don't see the harm in binding jump. Crouch, alt-attack etc to *something* even though they are "extras". These days, many mods use one or more of those functions and if a newbie player picks up GZDoom to try the mod out, I feel that not having those keys bound would be marginally worse than having them bound to something even if it isn't what the user might select something else themselves.

i.e. I just mean that more mods are likely to have all necessary keys configured to something "out of the box" if those actions get a default binding.
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