ZScript Discussion

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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Leonard2 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:34 pm

First, let's discuss what you said.
I brought this up so many times before, will you finally answer it (instead of ignoring the relevant part of my posts)?
Graf Zahl wrote:once a decision is made, nothing in there can be changed anymore.

Why? Where is this extreme urge to 'make everything final' and 'merge zscript' coming from?
What is pushing you so hard to do this?
When I see stuff like this, all I can think is "let's hope we don't make the same mistake again".
What makes you so confident that you won't run into the exact same issue again?
"Oh shit, this is horribly wrong, I made a terrible decision back then and now I can't change it anymore because for some reason I had the immense urge to make everything that had been done final"
This was my main point and it's easy to get. Just tell me, why?
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Rachael » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:48 pm

I can't speak for Graf, but I can speak for my own point of view on this matter.

First off, if I were Graf - ZScript has been a running thing for what, 2 months straight now? And he's been doing almost nothing but. Perhaps he's just sick of working on it and wants to do something else before he actually DOES get burnt out on it? Merging to master at least would allow a bigger array of bug reports to come in because not everything is done off of a separate branch, anymore, which at this point still requires a loosely supported special out-of-the-way download for ye average Jack & Jill. There's more going on in ZDoom than ZScript, and the advancement of other things has shown where Graf's nose has been buried all this time. This could be stressing him out.

Secondly, a merge would allow for something that everyone's been asking for since this whole mess began: Documentation. Nothing is still set in stone yet, but at least it's settled enough that you're probably not going to have to rewrite a whole 50 pages over one minor change.

Thirdly, it's hard to tell over text, but you seem really hostile and angry over this - in the end you are not even addressing the issues with ZScript, itself, and what YOU want out of it, which is what you are being asked?

Fourthly, a merge is not truly final until an official release on it has been made. And no one's going to do an official release on ZScript this early in the game. That would be unwise. (In fact, QZDoom's next release is scheduled for just-the-moment-before ZScript's actual merge) So - things can still change, though ideally they shouldn't.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Major Cooke » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:01 pm

3-4 months actually, but yes. I agree with everything Eruanna has stated. I would love nothing more than concreteness in the documentation too, because this is going to be a tremendous chore that I'm slowly picking at while I go along, trying bits of ZScript out one at a time.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:02 pm

To make it clear, there is no extreme urge to make ZScript public. That part isn't even on the table.

But there is the urge to get this code thrown at the multitude of existing DECORATE mods to be stress tested, and THAT is important. And we are not getting this by keeping it secluded in its own branch.
As a corollary of this, the second problem is having to maintain two mutually incompatible branches. We have experienced with Randi's long lived first scripting branch how bad that can turn out, and I want to avoid having two diverging branches with all the problems this causes in the long run. After merging the old scripting branch it went through a months long period of catching up with all the things that were not properly merged in and fixing all the shit that accumulated over 6 years of secluded development, compounded by having to deal with the fallout of the portal stuff at the same time.

So my ideal for now is a master that's working off ZScript but doesn't expose it as an official feature. That way the language itself can still be improved but at the same time it gets the testing it needs. And right now there is nothing else on the table that might get in the way and make the situation worse.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Caligari87 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:17 pm

I imagine there's also a lot of pressure to make sure it gets done right the first time. A decision to finalize something is such a huge deal because as soon as it's in the main branch (devbuild or not), someone, somewhere is going to use it for something. And if the implementation is bad but goes unnoticed for even a short while, it almost always has to stay that way forever because changing it could break untold numbers of mods which rely on the bad behavior.

8-)
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Rachael » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:21 pm

I'll put a disclaimer on the ZDoom/GZDoom/QZDoom devbuild pages that the ZScript implementation is not yet final until a first official release containing it has been made. If someone wants to throw caution to the wind and release and abandon their ZScript mod - that's on them. Most people will not even be able to run them right now due to requiring an opt-in in order to even use it, anyway, unless they are able to read up on how to actually use it. ;)
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Xaser » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:27 pm

Hmm, does "doesn't expose it as an official feature" mean ZScript-proper will actually be disabled from direct use in master? If not, folks will certainly start using it once it's merged -- though IMO that's acceptable with a "swim at your own risk" disclaimer.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Major Cooke » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:32 pm

From what I can gather, Graf's going to have ZScript disabled by default. To use it, a command line parameter must be passed.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:33 pm

Knowing how this community ticks, I don't think it can be done without a forced safety switch. Until the language is considered finalized, any master build containing it will have to explicitly enable it by adding '-zscript to the command line and having a disclaimer printed to the console.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Major Cooke » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:36 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Knowing how this community ticks


I'm laughing my ass off right now just from thinking about it.

But I agree, certainly would be the perfect idea for -zscript to be required. And from what I can gather, the zscript branch itself will continue remaining unblocked so if anyone wants to not deal with that, they'll just have to use the branch still.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Rachael » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:40 pm

Well there are going to be master pulls to all the respective ZScript branches in order to keep them up-to-date on the changes, and it might make sense to just leave the requirement in there, but the commit with the switch can always be reversed and then any master pulls requiring it from that point forward will continue to update as if it wasn't there - barring merge conflicts.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:44 pm

... Aaaand its done!
Big fat purple message so that it even gets into those heads who tend to ignore red. :twisted:
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Xaser » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:47 pm

Neato -- that works. Makes it brain-dead-obvious, and for those of us forging ahead with its experimental use, it'll be much easier to tell folks to use a command-line switch than to download a new thing.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Rachael » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:54 pm

Is the command-line switch proof only against loaded mods and not the game's internal ZScript code? I noticed it breaks on parsing a ZScript lump but there's one present in the pk3 code for the ZScript branch as it is.
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Re: ZScript Discussion

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Dec 06, 2016 4:19 pm

Without the internal one the engine would not be able to start, so... :mrgreen:
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