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Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:01 pm
by Graf Zahl
IMO this is a classic case of trading a small evil for a much larger one. I'd rather try to avoid the nasty problems lingering under the surface of such a house of cards.
And in case of some larger libraries it can easily happen that the dynamic versions exceed 10 MB but the application only needs 1 MB of it, and you never install enough applications to make up for it.

Another issue is that the above problem may amplify because you got an endless chain of dependencies, and each single one contains code you may never need. I'd say that in many cases the numbers may easily even themselves out in the end.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:35 pm
by dpJudas
Marisa Kirisame wrote:Well, I'm just saying, that MAYBE having shared libraries between different programs does help reduce redundancy at a large scale.

No. That's the exactly the point I'm making that it doesn't do anything at a large scale. Even a system wide reduction by 10-20 GB saves you 1-2% disk space. It simply isn't worth it. It is the equivalent of writing a function not part of the critical path in assembly by using the logic that the function is now twice as fast it was before. Technically true, but nobody would be able to tell.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:47 pm
by Marisa the Magician
dpJudas wrote:Even a system wide reduction by 10-20 GB saves you 1-2% disk space.


I'm sorry but I couldn't stop thinking about this statement. What kind of storage do you all have???

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:45 pm
by Graf Zahl
1 TB SSD. These days they are quite affordable.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:47 pm
by Drake Raider
I run Linux on a machine from 2012, and GZDoom runs like a charm. I don't know what problems people keep running into.
But honestly, it doesn't matter, I'd much rather drop Doom than a *nux, because my entire life of using Windows was constant pain, and now I run into mild annoyances at best. I think that the fact that that option, that people can chase different priorities, is what makes it so great. And what with the rate of Wine development in the last few years, I don't really need to. The perception of Linux as "Not being good for gaming" really isn't accurate anymore, or at least is super specialized. Elden Ring, for instance, is now famous for running better in Proton than native windows. It'll cause problems with certain philosophies of cross-platform development, but more systems these days use a *nux kernel than anything else, so it's clearly been successful in the markets it's targetting, and while I'd be very, very happy if M$ and Apple both died as companies, as long as they keep offering the product they're offering Graf isn't obligated to switch. Choice, it's what makes the world go round.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:36 pm
by Rachael
Drake Raider wrote:Choice, it's what makes the world go round.

That's really how I see it, and I said as much in my original post.

Much as I would love things to be standardized and unified - I never said I wanted it to be standardized by one of those corporations. And while both have done some great things in the computing space, they also have done some massively terrible things as well. But unfortunately from an objective point of view - both have done far greater good with defining standards than any Linux community ever has. People in the Linux community simply don't have enough respect for one another to allow any individual to do that - and even if they do, they have a massive reluctance to do so.

You might argue that's a good thing - but it is precisely the reason why binary packages are so infrequently made for Linux. Is this distro using libc6 or libc7? Are they using SDL-2.0.5 or SDL2.0.11? Does this file or that file go in /usr/bin? Or /usr/local/bin? Or /usr/share/bin? etc. It's all these crazy things that make it really hard to provide unified support for Linux - and that is also why, even with GZDoom, the dev team only offers official support for Ubuntu and its derivatives - even Debian, which Ubuntu is descended from, is considered more of a "you are on your own" status, much like Arch, Fedora, or any other distro. And this lack of generalized support for Linux is also why it is hard to get people to switch from Windows and Mac to Linux. It's too much of an initial learning curve. You might be fine putting a less computer literate person on pretty much any available X11-enabled version of Linux if their only intent is to browse the web, get their emails, and play lightweight simple games. Linux is great for that. But anything more advanced - and it's a cliff to climb, not a hill. If people's needs are not being readily and easily met early on, then generalized Linux adoption simply will never happen. Apple and Microsoft quite easily and eagerly meet the needs of both novices and power users alike, and both Windows and Mac tailor themselves to both types of people. (Though, with Windows 11 and the crippled taskbar, that's more of an issue)

Yes - you should have a choice - but even with choice you should expect some standards. It's why you don't sell products with European power plugs in America or vice versa, despite offering a multitude of different brands of coffee maker. There's a fine line between freedom and insanity. It seems the more hardcore Linux communities prefer insanity.


P.S. - Speaking of Windows 11's crippled taskbar, I remember that was brought up earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, the only solution I know of, currently, is a commercial program, but it's extremely cheap so it's not a huge deal. https://www.startallback.com/ This program fixed it for me, and it's done a far better job of it than ClassicShell/OpenShell.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:44 am
by Graf Zahl
Rachael wrote:P.S. - Speaking of Windows 11's crippled taskbar, I remember that was brought up earlier in the thread. Unfortunately, the only solution I know of, currently, is a commercial program, but it's extremely cheap so it's not a huge deal. https://www.startallback.com/ This program fixed it for me, and it's done a far better job of it than ClassicShell/OpenShell.



It's definitely better than the default - but does not restore full flexibility. But it solves by two biggest gripes - not expanding the items when an app is open and allowing multiple items of the same app when more than one instance is open. Sadly, drag&drop on the task bar's item still does not work - this was rather convenient on occasion when opening documents with no associated application.
I also still need Classic Shell to restore the start menu to what I prefer. Fortunately both coexist if the start menu in StartAllBack is disabled so I can use Classic Shell with a Win95-style menu.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:57 am
by Graf Zahl
Drake Raider wrote:as long as they keep offering the product they're offering Graf isn't obligated to switch. Choice, it's what makes the world go round.


I'll switch as soon as Linux starts to offer a usable (and actually used!) stable application ecosystem that's accepted by the community. Once that happens I am fairly certain that the most serious problems of the platform will get solved and it could start taking away market share from Windows.

With the current commonly accepted way to do things: not a chance!
This global library model was invented at a different time - when storage was scarce and expensive - when app complexity was orders of magnitude less than now and the old Unix way of "one tool for one job" actually made sense.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:43 am
by Project Dark Fox
Marisa Kirisame wrote:
dpJudas wrote:Even a system wide reduction by 10-20 GB saves you 1-2% disk space.


I'm sorry but I couldn't stop thinking about this statement. What kind of storage do you all have???

1 TB HDD, 250 GB SSD. From almost ten years ago.

Re: Why use a *nux distro?

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:16 pm
by Drake Raider
320 gb mostly full.