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Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:12 am
by Blzut3
dpJudas wrote:The comments I've been reading are saying the cutoff is to target x86-64-v3, but then also only the CPUs that have hardware fixes against spectre/meltdown. Basically they want to be able to compile all exes to use AVX2 (to compete more fairly against the M1 in tests) and remove the performance hit they had to implement in the kernel to prevent all those broken CPUs from getting hacked.

Definitely false. Pentium and Celeron CPUs are on the list (both Core and Atom based) and they have AVX disabled. Best they can do is require SSE4.1/SSE4.2. Of course there are other less talked about instruction sets they might care to enable, but I kind of doubt this has anything to do with it. Requiring UEFI alone basically sets the hard minimum to Sandy Bridge and FX (Technically Phenom can be used in FX boards to get UEFI but I suspect most Phenom systems are BIOS booted). Probably some exceptions to the rule (particularly old Apple hardware, but that's a whole can of worms).

I really can't think of any particular reason that set the cut off to 8th gen Intel and 2nd gen Ryzen. At the very least there should be no difference going back to 6th gen and 1st gen respectively since they're basically the same chip. The side channel mitigations is indeed perhaps the explanation. Having trouble finding any matrix of hardware mitigations by CPU generation, but I don't recall 2nd gen Ryzen having anything over 1st gen in that regard so there still seems to be some amount of arbitrary cut off there. Coffee Lake did do hardware meltdown mitigation so that would at least explain the requirement there.

Personally I expect that the statements that the CPU list is a hard requirement is a miscommunication somewhere, but I guess we'll see how things develop as more information comes available. I'll definitely be surprised if the actual DIY requirement doesn't basically come down to UEFI and perhaps the TPM support. Maybe toss out Phenom and Bobcat and require SSE4.1/4.2. The current requirements make sense for OEM certification, but seem quite arbitrarily aggressive otherwise.
sinisterseed wrote:This will only anger those bitter people even further and they'll still be staying on 10 past 2025 - and sadly not switch to an alternative either, they'd rather enjoy staying unsupported.

Hey they could totally downgrade to 1809 LTSC (likely illegally) to get security patches until 2029! :P

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:15 am
by Graf Zahl
The real issue right now is TPM 2.0. If it just was TPM 1.2 and the CPU requirement was lifted - which is likely related -, even my 9 year old system would pass the test, and this computer is still perfectly fine performance wise - even in GZDoom it requires the most complex of maps to force the frame rate down. It is mostly limited by GPU performance, actually, so I'd say for >95% of today's users it'd still fit the bill for a "powerful computer".

Everything else they did, like requiring UEFI, ditching 32 bit or requiring DirectX 12 support will only eliminate that hardware that really must be eliminated.

Another thing would be AVX2 mas dpJudas suspected. Sorry, but right now that wouldn't fly yet - there's still too many relevant systems out there that don't support it.
So, if the backpedaled on the TPM issue to 1.2 they might lose a few systems where no TPM is present and cannot be retrofitted, but that'd qualify as an acceptable loss.
Orphaning half the existing computers is just stupid.

I am fairly certain that the requirement came from the engineers who tend to run modern up to date systems and completely lost track over computing realities.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:23 am
by sinisterseed
Graf Zahl wrote:The real issue right now is TPM 2.0. If it just was TPM 1.2, even my 9 year old system would pass the test, and this computer is still perfectly fine performance wise - even in GZDoom it requires the most complex of maps to force the frame rate down. It is mostly limited by GPU performance, actually, so I'd say for >95% of today's users it'd still fit the bill for a "powerful computer".

Everything else they did, like requiring UEFI, ditching 32 bit or requiring DirectX 12 support will only eliminate that hardware that really must be eliminated.

Yeah, pretty much.

Many systems do support *some* version of TPM at all, but there's a number that also don't at all, such as mine. 1.2 would kinda sorta be acceptable seeing how many have discovered their mobos support TPM but have it disabled by default.

No comment on limiting W11 only to DX12, UEFI, and ditching 32-bit support, that hardware is pretty much useless nowadays. What are you gonna do on an OS that cannot handle more than 4GB of RAM in 2021 where everything is so demanding? Nothing, at all. Both NVIDIA and AMD ditched 32-bit support too, so enjoy yourself. And UEFI is also old hat at this point, what systems *don't* ship with one? Certainly not hardware that's still relevant today for the most part. Secure Boot was also another good choice, this was first introduced a very long time ago. So if a system is missing any of these, well, it probably deserved to be ditched.

Blzut3 wrote:
sinisterseed wrote:This will only anger those bitter people even further and they'll still be staying on 10 past 2025 - and sadly not switch to an alternative either, they'd rather enjoy staying unsupported.

Hey they could totally downgrade to 1809 LTSC (likely illegally) to get security patches until 2029! :P

Lmao no, that's a good one. Not happening considering how many retards out there utterly despise Windows updates. How many people used that trick available on XP to still receive updates in 2017/2018? Not more than a handful of people, that's for sure. And not to mention those who, after they installed the OS, turned off Windows Updates... Never underestimate human stupidity.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:36 am
by Cacodemon345
I find the TPM 2.0 requirement much more reasonable than the CPU requirement TBH. The CPU requirements are very harsh in comparison. Hopefully they don't force it in the final release because that would cut off 90% of Windows 10 systems.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:40 am
by sinisterseed
Cacodemon345 wrote:I find the TPM 2.0 requirement much more reasonable than the CPU requirement TBH. The CPU requirements are very harsh in comparison. Hopefully they don't force it in the final release because that would cut off 90% of Windows 10 systems.

Nah, it's just as bad, since some mobos don't support it at all, both at firmware and hardware level. I doubt I even have any physical space on mine to plug it in, so I'd need a whole new board just for TPM/PTT support alone.

And there's another issue with TPM that I just remembered. Some countries don't allow consumer hardware to be equipped with one, specifically Russia. So if TPM support remains a must, W11 will not be available in these regions, or MS will have to ship a different version of it, which will be another headache for them.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:44 am
by Cacodemon345

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:48 am
by Enjay
Cacodemon345 wrote:because that would cut off 90% of Windows 10 systems.

But, then again, that may be what they are going for. Sooner or later, the vast majority or live machines in the world will be Win11 capable. So all MS has to do is provide good support for Win10 as a current, but dying, OS until the point where they consider doing so of little business value to them. At that point, Win11 becomes the only supported version and all machines will be to the required spec. A big part of it depends on how they sell the idea of continued Win10 support so that users (private and business) will feel confident in that support until their hardware refresh regime catches up with MS' OS one.


A side question relating to Win11 requirements: Yesterday I read an article (admittedly something of a FUD one - so it may be inaccurate) that said Win11 will also require a webcam an always-on connection and an MS account to sign in. Any truth in these? Any reason for them (especially the webcam one, which seems odd)?

Speaking as someone who lives in an area of the country where my internet connection gets interrupted quite a bit and as someone who only ever signs into their MS account when they really need to (and then signs out again afterwards) neither of those things sound great.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:50 am
by sinisterseed

Yeh, what I said last night, basically.

>TPM 2.0 required.
>Nah, TPM 1.2 can do too.
>TPM actually not required at all.

Not even MS knows what they're doing lol. Truly the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and the right hand is screwing things up royally. Also read my edit above, there's other issues regarding TPM as some territories do not allow consumer hardware to be shipped with one, so MS will either have to disable it for these regions or make another version available only in those territories. So *another* headache, for them this time around.

I'm just not seeing how forcing these two particular issue right now is going to work at all.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:55 am
by sinisterseed
Enjay wrote:
Cacodemon345 wrote:because that would cut off 90% of Windows 10 systems.

But, then again, that may be what they are going for. Sooner or later, the vast majority or live machines in the world will be Win11 capable. So all MS has to do is provide good support for Win10 as a current, but dying, OS until the point where they consider doing so of little business value to them. At that point, Win11 becomes the only supported version and all machines will be to the required spec. A big part of it depends on how they sell the idea of continued Win10 support so that users (private and business) will feel confident in that support until their hardware refresh regime catches up with MS' OS one.

A side question relating to Win11 requirements: Yesterday I read an article (admittedly something of a FUD one - so it may be inaccurate) that said Win11 will also require a webcam an always-on connection and an MS account to sign in. Any truth in these? Any reason for them (especially the webcam one, which seems odd)?

Speaking as someone who lives in an area of the country where my internet connection gets interrupted quite a bit and as someone who only ever signs into their MS account when they really need to (and then signs out again afterwards) neither of those things sound great.

75% bullshit.

But I did read something to that effect regarding the webcam requirement. By 2023 all laptops will apparently be required to ship with a built-in frontal webcam. But the rest is FUD, none of that is required.

As for providing W10 support until only W11 will be the only supported Windows OS, that's equally nonsense mate. Just look at how many users and especially enterprises still use 7 and XP up to this day. 15yrs from this day onward and they'd just *maybe* upgrade to 10 instead.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:00 am
by Cacodemon345
Yeah the TPM 2.0 requirement seems to be no longer mandatory after all. But the official Microsoft document confirms the arbitrary CPU requirement cutoff will stay and Windows 11 will likely refuse to boot on anything older than 8th Gen Intel or 2nd Gen Ryzen (maybe 1st Gen Ryzen according to what Rachael said).

And yeah, Microsoft Account and Internet Connection will be mandatory for Home Edition installs according to official minimum system requirements (although people has been able to bypass the Microsoft account requirement by using a locked-up burner account). Pro and Enterprise users get a way out. Webcam will be mandatory from 2023 for laptops. For displays, 6-bit with dithering is permitted thankfully, so hopefully Intel can release a GPU driver update for my laptop to enable dithering from 8 bits-per-channel to 6 bits-per-channel as it only has a 6-bit display.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:38 am
by dpJudas
Blzut3 wrote:Definitely false. Pentium and Celeron CPUs are on the list (both Core and Atom based) and they have AVX disabled.

I guess it still is true that you shouldn't trust anything on the internet without checking the facts yourself. :D

Ah well, maybe they picked the cutoff as exactly 3 years or something stupid like that. Microsoft is really testing just how little support they can get away with in general for all their products these days. I think there's zero chance they'll get away with not letting people with this recent hardware upgrade to Windows 11. Especially not if they plan on ending support for Windows 10 at the date they specified. People would literally start hacking Windows if the cutoff is this arbitrary.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:40 am
by Graf Zahl
The CPU requirement has always been a 'soft' limit, so the list may expand. As it is now, it's simply too steep and will hurt more than it helps.
If they don't lift that they may just ignore the TPM issue as well.

Regarding all those old XP and 7 systems still out in the wild, I'd guess these have been written off as total losses already. It's pointless to fight corporate stubbornness.

By 2023 all laptops will apparently be required to ship with a built-in frontal webcam


What puzzles me is how some manufacturers still dare selling such crap. Video meetings via internet have become so commonplace by now that a camera is a necessity, not an option.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:47 am
by Enjay
Graf Zahl wrote:What puzzles me is how some manufacturers still dare selling such crap. Video meetings via internet have become so commonplace by now that a camera is a necessity, not an option.

Equally, I'm puzzled that so many users/organisations buy camera-less laptops for the same reason.

I guess company/organisation buyers see the price and don't look closely enough at the spec or don't consider the needs of whoever they are buying for (also applies to uninformed private buyers - buying for themselves or relatives etc - too).

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:01 am
by Cacodemon345
I think many people buy camera-less laptops due to spying concerns.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:10 am
by Graf Zahl
The issue's not whether you're paranoid, the issue is whether you're paranoid enough. :bang: