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Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:39 pm
by Cacodemon345
Seems like Microsoft will allow users of older computers to upgrade to Windows 11 when it gets released:
https://www.theverge.com/22644194/micro ... rs-changes

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:37 am
by sinisterseed
Also, it looks like ASUS is already releasing BIOS updates to enable TPM support for capable motherboards as well.

Which was a nice plot twist after a friend linked me that last night. My mobo is actually supported, but the reason why I couldn't find it damn near anywhere is because ASUS put it into Advanced Mode under "PCH-FW" (what's that, even?). The only option there is actually the TPM 2.0 toggle, called "Intel Trusted Platform Module" for me. Switched it on, PC did a hard reboot, and looked into tpm.msc after getting back online. It works.

So the only issue that remains is whether the CPU requirements will indeed stay this way or not. That'd be the only thing locking me out of W11 now I believe.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 8:59 am
by Cacodemon345
Turns out people installing Windows 11 on unsupported systems won't get updates. I can already hear people being actually very glad to not have updates forced down their throats.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:38 am
by sinisterseed
Cacodemon345 wrote:Turns out people installing Windows 11 on unsupported systems won't get updates. I can already hear people being actually very glad to not have updates forced down their throats.

Which is stupid IMO.

If it isn't capable or supported, then no OS upgrade. It really should be this simple as being allowed to upgrade to it anyway only to be stuck on an initial RTM build is going to be pretty bad.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:33 pm
by SanyaWaffles
Since there's all ready a Windows 11 thread and people were wondering about support... I decided to post some updates.

Against my better judgment and with all the FUD I've seen about Windows 11, I decided to give Windows 11 a try.

I want to state I am no way a fanboy of Microsoft nor am I condoning the confusing mess that was announcing Windows 11. I am simply stating my personal experience.

The hardest part was enabling the TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot in my BIOS and updating said BIOS. Mainly because my mouse hates the BIOS interface and it was hard to move the cursor around.

I'm hoping future BIOS updates have TPM 2.0 and Secure Boot enabled or this will be a clusterfuck.

The upgrade process required me to do a SFC /scannow check and force the updater into admin mode, but once that happened, the upgrade was pretty quick. I was up and running on Windows 11 within... about 20 minutes? Maybe sooner? Maybe longer? I lost track. I've done so many updates to Windows under the Windows 10 SaaS model I literally have grown numb to how long they take.

The first thing I noticed was how quick it booted. It boots even quicker on my Samsung 970 SSD - which is NVMe based.

Aside the task bar being centered - an easy fix in the options - the interface looks mostly the same at start. I don't really care for the macOS type interface change, though some might like it I suppose.

I all ready had a Microsoft Account on this computer, so I didn't need to set it up. I know some people this will be a deal breaker, but if you want to save yourself some time, just link your account to a Microsoft account before updating.

It also didn't ask me for additional option changes. It also respected my choices - such as me forcing Cortana off and having many apps disabled. I know in the past Windows 10 has tried to sneakily re-enable these things.

I had some initial problems with apps like Photoshop not working properly. I can't tell if this is a Windows issue or Adobe being a piece of shit software company. A restart fixed that however. I reckon it was due to the graphics driver not working properly. So if you do update, best to restart after the initial desktop boot and the drivers are all installed.

The only noticeable thing is some apps take a while to start and some folders take a while to load initially. UDB and TF2 both took a bit to load a map and the game itself respectively. GZDoom (and our inhouse WIGZDoom fork) didn't, and seemed to have no issues distinctly related to Windows 11. However, loading folders wasn't as snappy as I'd hope. Maybe there's a tweaked setting I did that didn't carry over very well. However the issues as time went on seemed to ease up, so maybe Windows 11 is sentient and has growing pains on my rig - which I christened when I got it the RubyStation 255, because it's a shortstack workstation akin to the Ruby gems from Steven Universe.

The only thing that didn't work was Open-Shell, we'll get to the remedy in a moment. It's okay though.

Aside some of the initial program apps not working and folders not being as snappy, overall it seems to be more or less the same as Windows 10 - except I really dig the new icons. They're minimalist without being too minimalist. The rest of the UI is still very flat with apps like Firefox and UDB, but I like the rounded corners of many apps, especially built in ones now and the slightly more defined buttons. IT generally feels more like a cross between Windows 10 and 7.

None of my drivers needed updated AFAIK. I did reinstall the graphics drivers to be sure, and restarted my PC to resolve the Photoshop crash issue.

I brought the old context and start menu back using StartAllBack - which is in a RC state and cost 5USD (which is a lot of money). You can get the old Win 10 start menu back and the context menu back by regedit entries though for free, but I like a more Windows 7 style start menu.

I've experienced no stability problems, I was expecting a blue screen or something immediately because everyone was telling me DON'T UPDATE IT MIGHT CAUSES A CATACLYSMIC EVENT HORIZON THAT'LL DOOM US ALL it will crash and steal all your data and babies.

I decided to give the Windows Terminal Preview a try. I kind of like it, though I use the Command Prompt more than Powershell. However it works wonderfully. However the old Command Prompt Host app is around, as well as alternatives I still use like ConEmu... so you'll have your pick of consoles for Windows.

Speaking of TF2, it seems to run fine. So does other games I've recently been playing like Mini Motorways. So I've noticed no actual issues with support. I'm sure some older games might have significant problems with the new OS if there's no modern patches available. However, most old games I play have emulators or source ports available.

The only thing that really chafes me is the fact there's still two control panels. Is it really that difficult for them to modernize and unify the both of them? It's awful to have to switch between the two.



Here's my desktop for those who are curious.

So is it the worst thing since sliced Hitlermegastalin? Probably not. It's actually very usable, though some hiccups and inconsistencies with how the dark/light themes work is a bit off putting. As you can see - I actually have dark theme on but some of these themes are still light theme. It... is... dare I say... hhhhideous. Put that aside, and the OS is quite nice and ran everything I normally use at it after a restart.

Even works with Discord's finnicky screen sharing. I always worry about that breaking, as me and my development team use it extensively for our job.

Is it worth upgrading? Not right away. You're not missing out on anything spectacular, except some interface eye candy.

If Windows 10 is working fine for you, keep using it for a bit longer.

I just like living on the edge tech-wise. Plus I noticed some stability improvements. I dunno why, but my old OS was constantly - even on my Ryzen 7 - chugging along with some apps. This seems to have fixed it... short term perhaps. I dunno why but Windows 10 for me never really worked optimally... so this seems to be a bit of an improvement.

I will say, the setting up the bios and running the checks to make sure Windows 11 can run is probably going to turn some people off. I'm pretty sure new machines will come with these settings enabled.

Anyhow, I don't do numerical ratings normally, but I'll give this one a Nathan's hot dog out of 1024 for those who are numerically inclined.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 11:56 pm
by Graf Zahl
I'm going to wait.
OpenShell not working is a deal breaker for me and the new restricted task bar also does not suit my needs.
If they don't fix that I'm going to wait it out.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:09 am
by SanyaWaffles
Graf Zahl wrote:OpenShell not working is a deal breaker for me and the new restricted task bar also does not suit my needs.


Looks like they're working on it. I expect it to be fixed in a month or so.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:01 am
by Graf Zahl
Let's hope so. One other thing: I've read some bits about Windows 11 having screwed up the right-click context menu. What's up with that?

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:41 am
by Blzut3
SanyaWaffles wrote:I all ready had a Microsoft Account on this computer, so I didn't need to set it up. I know some people this will be a deal breaker, but if you want to save yourself some time, just link your account to a Microsoft account before updating.

Being one of the few computers I have that meets all of the Windows 11 requirements, I upgraded my Cannon Lake NUC which came with Windows 10 Home. The upgrade did not require a Microsoft account. Never even asked.

So as far as I can tell this requirement is only for new installs. Most likely only new installs where an Internet connection is present just like with the latest versions of Windows 10.

Spoiler:

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:32 am
by dpJudas
Graf Zahl wrote:Let's hope so. One other thing: I've read some bits about Windows 11 having screwed up the right-click context menu. What's up with that?

My jaded answer is that this is because they were super lazy with their new theme. Half of it is just re-enabling code they already had from Windows 7 (such as the glass blur), and the other half is not being willing to update uxtheme properly.

The result is that whenever they have some code using common controls 6 the theme is visually off and not looking good. One of those things is the explorer context menu, because the contents are populated via COM 3rd party components. So what did they do? Instead of fixing uxtheme they went and created a new context menu from scratch. It looks fine and fits the theme. But then someone raised the hand and said "what about 3rd party tools?" and the lazy fuckers all agreed it was an acceptable solution to add an "More Options" item to the new menu that opened the old (now ugly) menu.

I bet they didn't even provide a new API for the plugins to get back into the new context menu. It would fit the way they went about this.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:49 am
by Graf Zahl
And so we will see a lot of third party tools fixing these things again...

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:05 am
by dpJudas
Honestly the only argument I've seen so far for switching to Windows 11 has been the theme. And the new settings app, but then how often do you actually use that for it to be worth an OS upgrade?

Unfortunately they didn't bother do the theme properly. I was really really looking forward getting away from Windows 10's fill rect hell. The new theme is visually much nicer, but when they didn't do it right for uxtheme then I'm not even sure the OS as whole even looks better. With Windows 10 there was at least more consistency between the old and new portions of their UI. You don't even have to go deep into the OS to find the old stuff.

Here's a screenshot from launching a couple of things straight from that menu:



Notice how the theme for all 4 applications are totally out of sync. With the Explorer even being out of sync with itself. I deliberately showed the "More Options" submenu for the context menu to illustrate how the listview theme in the explorer doesn't even use the same margin rules as the uxtheme popup menu. All in all, looks like the worst of the worst CSS websites where everything is just slightly off next to each other.

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:14 am
by Graf Zahl
What bothers me most on that screenshot is that fucking ugly calculator. That seems to be one app that gets progressively worse with each new Windows version...

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:20 am
by dpJudas
In this case it has just remained degenerate. That's literally the Windows 10 calculator unchanged. Which was sorta the point - it doesn't follow the new theme. :p

Re: Win11 support

PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:23 am
by Graf Zahl
The one in 8.1 at least looks functional.
I guess with everything I've read so far I'm going to pass on Win 11 for now when buying my next computer. It is clear that this system still needs a lot of work to iron out all the mess.