Anyone find Doom modding hard?

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Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Artman2004 » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:13 pm

In the past, I've tried making simple Doom maps and DECORATE weapons, and found myself never making a finished product. In maps, I usually find that lots of things in the level don't work. Doors won't move, sectors won't rise/sink, etc. Either that or I run out of ideas of what to put next. Both outcomes lead me to give up on these maps and let them collect digital dust, or just delete them entirely. In terms of weapon mods, at best I produce a non-functioning lump of code, at worst I make absolute nothing.

Does anyone have similar issues?
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby chopkinsca » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:50 pm

you know man, I have to agree. Mod making is quite tough. That's why it is only performed by the best of the best. But you don't need to be the best to do any kind of modding. Just be yourself, ya know.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Jarewill » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:07 pm

Modding is quite hard indeed. Everyone experiences problems with their code and/or maps. (I still have problems wrapping my head around most of ZScript functions for example)
But that's what these forums are for, to get help with the parts that don't work so you can fix them. Especially the scripting / mapping subforums are extremely useful.
The only recommendation I can give is to not give up, try to find motivation for the modding, (for example think how other people will enjoy your mod/map) and don't be afraid to ask questions about the issues you are experiencing.

Coding for Doom has the benefit of being very well documented, (at least DECORATE) I can't count how many times simply googling for a way to do this or that gave me a wiki link to the proper function.
There's also thousands of mods that you can use as reference material. Editing weapons from Realm667 is how I started!
Mapping might also apply here, but I'm far too inexperienced in it to tell.

So, best of luck to you! Editing help subforums are always open for more threads. :D
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Cherno » Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:17 pm

Join the Discord to get instant (well, kinda) answers to your modding questions. It means that most of the time, you get a working solution withing minutes instead of haviong to create a forum thread and wait for others to post, and it allows for back-and-forth discussions quickly.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Matt » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:29 pm

The way Doom mapping and scripting works is this palimpsest of almost 30 years of stuff added on top of stuff spanning nearly the entirety of the single most technologically volatile period in computing history.

I'm always amazed anyone gets it who wasn't there for it in the 90s.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Kappes Buur » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:33 pm

Matt wrote:I'm always amazed anyone gets it who wasn't there for it in the 90s.


I find quite the opposite to be so.

Early on, during the 90s, it was quite difficult in that one had to find out how to do mapping, editing and altering levels by oneself, mostly. The only surefire way was by experimenting. Editors were basically really simple. Lay down vertices, connect them with linedefs to make sectors, etc. None of that fancy stuff.

Not at all like today, where editors have build-in support for just about anything one can think of to alleviate the heavy lifting, for example to make a door, make stairs, 3D floors, dynamic lights, etc. If one does not want to experiment, then detailed information is readily available through the Wikis or the forums.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Kinsie » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:41 am

Doom modding isn't the most trivial thing, there's still a few things to learn and wrap your head around, but damned if it isn't a hell of a lot easier than most other engines at this point.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm

These days, I don't find it especially hard to just make something... But making something good, yeah, that takes some work. (Like any other creative project.)
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby ramon.dexter » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:43 am

I started modding for doom out of pure curiosity, on how exactly doom was made. So I downloaded slade and doom builder 2 and became hooked. Then I started learning decorate, acsz dialogue scripting, and everything else. When the zscript came, I thought it will help me to make even more wonderful things, but it turned out to be mpre complex than I imagined before. So I started learning zscript. And from the late time, I started learning modelling in blender.
So I can say doom modding isn't that hard, at least for me. But, what I find hard, is to actually think up way of doing something that is correct in doom coding, or what is possible to make in a map.
But looking at the doomworld forums, from the completely basic questions there, I can say doom modding is actually hard and complicated for people who have only user experience with computers. Like, for anyone with zero computer knowledge is installation of program a task beyond his skills. So, imagine what modding a game is for this one. Rocket science. So this question is hard to answer, considering who will be doing it.
But I'm looking simply at the technical aspect. There is also the creative side. And the creative process is especially hard. To make something good and original is quite hard and tedious process.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby ReX » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:49 am

Artman2004 wrote:Anyone find Doom modding hard?

One word: OBLIGE
Use the random level generator, see which aspects you like, then use a map editor to see how those parts were built.

In terms of maintaining a sufficient level of interest: First, build a mod for yourself. See how you can improve it until you can thoroughly enjoy it. Then distribute it to get feedback. Then tweak to improve further.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:10 pm

Anybody finding Doom modding hard should try modding for Build engine games... :P
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Enjay » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:30 pm

Cherno wrote:It means that most of the time, you get a working solution withing minutes instead of having to create a forum thread and wait for others to post, and it allows for back-and-forth discussions quickly.

Whilst I agree that is a benefit and an advantage of something like Discord, it's also a problem IMO. Why? Because, as you say, it means that you don't have to create a thread and therefore a permanent record of the question and the answer doesn't exist on this site.

As for the original question, no, not really. I don't think that I ever found Doom modding especially hard. I mean, I have been doing it for a very long time so I have had plenty of opportunity to learn the pitfalls but I remember the first time that I put a level together. A friend and I worked together for an hour or so. He'd figured out how the editor worked and we went through it together with him showing me what he'd learned and then the two of us figuring out other stuff. That was enough to give me the basics and that first test/practice map was expanded to become the first map that I released.

Sure, there have been frustrations along the way as I started learning and using new features but I have personally always found Doom modding to be reasonably straight forward. These forums and the Wiki have always been very helpful.

With the modern source ports (and editing tools), many of the apparently illogical restrictions and more arcane bits of modding knowledge (that would have been perfectly sensible to id as they designed and built the game in accordance to their own needs) became irrelevant and I feel that Doom, and particularly GZDoom, is a very approachable but flexible engine to work with that allows people to get results quickly and without too much of a learning curve. Of course, for most people it will never be a case of "just fire up the editor and it will all make sense from there". There will always be a learning curve and making something good will always take effort. However, making a game (or mod) is not a simple or even a single task. Doom is one of the easier ways to get into it though. That's partly why it is still so popular as a modding and indie game engine. As Kinsie said, it is far easier (or perhaps simpler is a better word) than most other engines at this point - even ones designed to be approachable, such as Unreal Engine.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Ravick » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:17 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Anybody finding Doom modding hard should try modding for Build engine games... :P


I actually started modding for vanilla Blood (MAPEDIT.exe's days).When I got into Zdoom modding, I was amazed how easier it was to make, well, everything.
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Amuscaria » Sat May 22, 2021 11:17 am

It's has a lot more complexity now than when I started in the late 90s, but we've never had better tools. The possibilities of what you can make has never been greater. Personally, I found it easier than ever. Decorate, ZScript, Slade and Doom Builder is orders of magnitude better than the old DEH, WinTeX and WinDEU I had to start with... :P
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Re: Anyone find Doom modding hard?

Postby Kappes Buur » Sat May 22, 2021 8:24 pm

Ah, the nostalgia :D

At one point I had been mapping for DOOM3 (GtkRadiant days), or tried to.
That was hard. I gave up in a hurry, it made my brain hurt.
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