Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby NotDoom » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:47 am

Doom is 3D, but the whole game was made to not require jumping, passing under hanging corpses or having to aim up at some target that is 10 cm away in the horizontal plane and 10 meters high on the vertical axis. I wasn't saying that doom is 2D. The maps are 2D, but extruded vertically to have depth.

If sprites could have 16 angles: 0, 22.5, 45, .... 360 it would look very close to real 3D. But who is going to paint twice as many frames? Multiply that for ZX and ZY planes and that's a hell lot of frames to paint by hand. If you model the thing in 3D and take screenshots for every angle, why not use the 3D model itself?

When you look up and down in doom, sprites either keep facing you or they are rendered like sheets of paper and this is ugly. They made the classic doom with this in mind, no aiming at targets at 70 degrees up or down.
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby leileilol » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:06 pm

That has little on why models look terrible in Doom though. There's a whole "2.5D" game with fine, well animated models that works well artistically and goes against that "doom aint 3d!!!" dead horse with regards to art. (Chasm: The Rift)
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby Matt » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:59 pm

Conversely you can have a full 3D engine but all the actors are represented by billboarded sprites...
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby Marisa Kirisame » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:56 pm

It's all about how well made and animated those models are. And if they're enemy models, how well those enemies have been re-scripted to not look like complete ass when they move around, because Doom's overtly-simplistic vanilla monster behaviour will NOT mesh well with that at all, making them appear "stiff".
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby Nash » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:22 am

leileilol wrote:- Normals are recognized and calculated upon to give proper shading (even a simple fixed-towards-view 'specular' calc would help a lot), otherwise they'll look flatter than the original sprites


This is what my PR aims to solve. Currently models are already properly-lit from dynamic lights - provided there are actually any lights at all touching the models. The purpose of that PR is to add a fake "light" (I put that in quotes because it's not really a true directional light; it's not adding light, but rather shading some contrast) to models so that there will be contrast even in the absence of lights.

(currently preparing the demo file Graf requested, it's quite tedious cuz I'm making content from scratch LOL)
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby xenoxols » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:23 am

If you ask me, I think that really low poly models would look the least out of place.
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby RastaManGames » Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:35 pm

So, because we are in "Off-Topic" zone, I can ask something...
In "GZDoom" of version 4.5pre-85 there is no option "enable hi-res textures".
It's just gone and now all "hd textures" mods don't working.

Why and what's going on?
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby salahmander2 » Mon Sep 07, 2020 11:32 am

I started on Doomsday with 3d models, used to think it was the bomb, but after maturing a bit, I find the models a bit ugly, like the cacos look too happy along with the Barons. And the animation is weird, like the demons are licking you instead of biting. It did get my interest into source ports though.
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Re: Your opinion on 3D models in classic Doom

Postby Enjay » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:12 pm

A lot of the discussion in this thread has been about replacing actors with models. My jury is out on how well that looks: sometimes I like them, sometimes I don't.

However, sometimes models can be used as props (as some people have said) to integrate with the scenery and can enhance the map, or make structures that are difficult/impossible to make with traditional lines and sectors. For one of my own projects, Waterlab, I used a small number of models in what is, more or less, a fairly traditional-ish Doom map (albeit that it does use dynamic lighting, custom enemies and scripting).

For example, piles of METAL plates:






and replacements for (and a smaller version of) the standard Doom lamp.

Care was taken to make these as close to the size of the sprite as possible (tracing over the sprite in my model editor) with a similar level of detail on the skin:





There was another map that I played years ago that used models for 3D pipes using the usual Doom2 "PIPES" texture as the skin and nice little 3D models of textures like the GSTLION that looked almost exactly like the texture except that the lion head was 3D. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the map - anyone? It was a very effective use of models and one of the first seamless attempts at model use that I had seen.


Other uses can include breakable grilles, bridges and so on (many of which can, of course, be done with lines, sectors 3D floors etc) and when done at the correct resolution, will fit seamlessly into a map perhaps without the player even realise that they are looking at a model.



Here are some more examples or my stuff - this time from my Genetech map which was certainly not a "classic Doom" styled map, but these particular examples do adopt the above philosophy.

This little computer console was placed in an awkward position and had a slightly awkward size - it was easier to make a model than to make it from sectors but it looks very much like similar consoles elsewhere in the map that are made from sectors:


This bar/grate thingy was made by tracing over a texture in the model editor and then using the texture as the skin. The idea was to make it feel more solid then just a standard paper-thin texture on a line:


This is perhaps pushing it a bit, but I deliberately textured these little wall mounted machines so that they wouldn't look too out of place against the low-res walls that they were mounted on.


Again, I probably could have made something very similar using sectors and 3D floors but the back wall of this portal tunnel was easier and (I feel) more effective as a model (again, textured in a way to blend with the surroundings):
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