About Doomguy's name...

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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby Enjay » Wed May 13, 2020 6:01 am

jdredalert wrote:The soundtrack, ripped straight from 80's metal bands

Whilst it is undeniable that Bobby Prince did... borrow? from many metal tracks, this often-heard statement has always struck me as a bit of a shame. Why? Because if you listen to the sound track (particularly Doom rather than Doom2) a good proportion of the music simply doesn't fit with it. A lot of the music is far more mellow, far more atmospheric than the sweeping statement that "Doom music is metal" implies. Indeed, all of my favourite pieces of music from Doom are the ones that don't really have a "metal" vibe at all.

However, all of your points make sense, and I do certainly see what you are saying, but I'm sticking with my earlier statement that Doom never gave me the impression of trying too hard or of contrived edgyness but the whole Doomslayer thing (and other aspects) of the new game really does.
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby Scripten » Wed May 13, 2020 7:51 am

I saw the "edginess" of Doom Eternal more as a case of tongue-in-cheek goofiness. It doesn't feel like they meant to be grimdark and transgressive, which I'd argue the originals absolutely aimed for. At this point in time, games have to go to extremes to be considered "edgy". Some of the dissonance is based on the era of gaming when they were respectively released, like jdredalert said earlier.

Enjay wrote:
jdredalert wrote:The soundtrack, ripped straight from 80's metal bands

A lot of the music is far more mellow, far more atmospheric than the sweeping statement that "Doom music is metal" implies. Indeed, all of my favourite pieces of music from Doom are the ones that don't really have a "metal" vibe at all.


Maybe not Hair Metal exclusively, but a lot of metal uses symphonic elements, choral backing, etc. The atmospheric tracks from Doom draws pretty heavily from that side of the genre. I think Prince did a deeper dive in his work than people give him credit for (which is kind of understandable, considering the games industry at the time).
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby Chris » Wed May 13, 2020 7:57 am

jdredalert wrote:Well, I would start with the graphics. Top-notch for the time, filled with all that violence and satanic imagery. Let's put emphasis on violence here, because while it looks silly and cartoony by today's standards, Doom's art is excessively gory, especially how the humanoid enemies get gibed and you can see the ribcage bones exposed, or Baron of Hell's torso ripping apart while it's intestines fell. That was a whole other level and even Mortal Kombat, which was infamous for its violence, paled in comparison.

More graphic depictions of gore and violence don't necessarily equate to try-hard edgelords. Again, consider Doom's inspirations. Aliens (which the game was going to be a licensed spin-off of, before becoming its own thing) was a movie that was also heavy on violence and gore. An increase in visual fidelity in media is always accompanied by an increase in detail for violence and gore in said media; just look at movies, and how they started getting more violent and gory as special effects, and video recording and reproduction, improved (fun-fact, it wasn't until the early 80s that special effects started getting recognized for Oscar Awards in Hollywood*). Similarly, though many people like to think of D&D as this colorful family-friendly fantasy game, it has some disturbing things if you really look at it. The cacodemon is practically a direct rip of artwork of an astral dreadnought, and the latter looks much more detailed and gruesome than the caco's spritework, IMO.

* The first award being for Rick Baker's work on An American Werewolf in London. Despite being a movie from the early 80s, the gore effects were so well done that the director was astonished how well they still looked when more recently transferring the analog film to high-definition digital (after worrying a high-def transfer would expose the effects makeup as looking fake), and thinks they may have actually gone a bit overboard with it. Don't confuse a job well done as a try-hard attempt.

It's also not as if Doom was id's first rodeo when it comes to violence. Wolfenstein 3D was also criticized for its at-the-time excessive violence and unnecessary nazi imagery. Sure, it looks silly and cartoony today, but at its time it was pushing the envelope. Some years later, a significant improvement in tech, and replacing nazis with demons (and the creative freedom afforded by that), and Doom is a natural result. That video games were increasing in popularity of course meant it got more attention, both positive and negative.

The soundtrack, ripped straight from 80's metal bands, that although as you said were kinda popular a decade prior the game release, both metal bands and fans were always labeled as misfits, edgy and inappropriate. Unless you had some real open-minded folks, playing "Angel of Death" during a family reunion wouldn't end well.

Being labeled as misfits and edgy is different from being try-hard edgy. The former is how others see you, the latter is how you try to be seen. While "Angel of Death" may not be appropriate to put on at a family reunion, I doubt many people would listen to Metallica or Judas Priest in the early 90s to "prove" how edgy they were. Punk and Grunge were already taking the place of Rock and Metal for counter-culture by that time. Heck, Blind Guardian was already a thing by the 90s, mixing metal and fantasy. There was definite nerdiness to be had with metal music even at that time.

Or the intermission texts: "Once you beat the big badasses and clean out the moon base, you were supposed to win aren't you? Aren't you?". That really sounds like trying to be cool for me.

Remember that id didn't put all that much stock in the game's story. It was barebones and not at all serious. Other action and sci-fi media had a similar tone as the original Doom, and as we see with the Ep 4 expansion (Ep 3's end with a rabbit head on a pike being turned into a joke, retroactively becoming Doomguy's pet rabbit Daisy and all your fighting was because she was killed), they weren't afraid of having fun with it.

My theory is that people tend to forget the impact of some of those aspects of oldschool Doom, especially when newer games, more realistic, violent and shocking (sometimes for no reason) games appeared. Doom rapidly became tame, silly and the graphic violence was banalized (even more after the whole Brutal mods craze).

I don't dispute the impact of old-school Doom, it was very controversial in its time due to its groundbreaking visuals and visceral gameplay. However, I question the assertion that its visuals and gameplay were a product of the developers trying to be "cool and edgy", rather than them being inspired to make something and staying true to that inspiration while succeeding beyond all expectations. Again, don't confuse a job well done as a try-hard attempt.
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby jdredalert » Wed May 13, 2020 10:15 am

Chris, I understand your opinion that the modern Doom games are goofy and edgy. They are. Nobody needs to smash the head of a dead body in a retina scanner just to open a door, but that's what Doomgu...Slayer does. However, all I ask is for you to maybe look at the classic Doom games from another point of view.
I know violence in media can be totally opposite to being try-hard. I could say that the classic shower scene in Pisco was really violent for its time, but it wasn't a try-hard edgy scene. I can't say the same for Human Centipede 2. What I mean is that in the context of Doom creation (the personal tastes of the creators in entertainment media in general, the overall age of the team, the target demographic of product, etc), I really think they were trying to appeal to a specific public: mostly teenagers and young adults. I believe that most people here on this forum played Doom for the first time at this age, and many of them were mesmerized by the violence, the soundtrack, and the unholy imagery. If it wasn't for that, Doom wouldn't get the fame - and infamy - it got, after all, Wolfenstein already existed back when Doom was released, and there was also the "Doom clone fever" with tons of games trying to be the new Doom, but only Doom had the attention and controversies it had. I don't really see how and why "an inspired job well done" and "try-hard to be cool and edgy" must be antonyms in this context. I don't know if you like or dislike the new Doom games, but in my opinion, both statements apply to them, and I love those games. When you say:

"Remember that id didn't put all that much stock in the game's story. It was barebones and not at all serious. Other action and sci-fi media had a similar tone as the original Doom, and as we see with the Ep 4 expansion (Ep 3's end with a rabbit head on a pike being turned into a joke, retroactively becoming Doomguy's pet rabbit Daisy and all your fighting was because she was killed), they weren't afraid of having fun with it."


isn't that trying to be cool? The text could have been written in a more serious tone, and the cute rabbit beheaded and impaled adds nothing to the already shallow plot, but was appealing to the above-mentioned target audience. I'm sure lots of kids laughed and said things like "this is rad, dude!" while their parents would probably find the scene distasteful. I honestly think that the scene was added purely to the edginess factor, and I have absolutely no problems with that! (I guess I was one of the kids that laughed of poor Daisy).

PS: i don't want to digress even more from the Doomguy name topic, but about the metalheads being edgy-lords: we can't say all of them are. I know i am not one of them. But let's be honest here, they were no saints, especially during the 80's and 90's. We live in the same world as Varg Vikernes and some other guys that did wrong things "because metal". From getting into fights to burning churches. We also know that many metal musicians had a sweet spot for trouble, like Dave Mustaine, so bad reputation was justified to some extent. And you bet a lot of kids were listening to metal to prove how evil/tough/edgy they were. Metal wasn't so mainstream anymore, but damn, some of the best albums came from the 90's (Judas had Painkiller, Metallica had Black Album, Pantera had Cowboys and Vulgar Display of Power, Slayer had Seasons in Abyss, Megadeth had Rust in Peace, Death had all of its discography past Leprosy and so on), so the style was alive and kicking at the time, in much better shape than today i might add.
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed May 13, 2020 11:36 am

Enjay wrote:Yeah, I never saw the original Doom gore and imagery as too edgy or trying too hard.
Neither did I, I simply said that they were at the edge for the time. ;) If the series had tried to back away from that, it would've been considerably worse.

Also:
Chris wrote:Funny enough, the whole "Rip and Tear" slogan adopted by new-Doom originally came from that comic. I remember people deriding the comic for devolving Doom to such simplistic carnage, and "Rip and Tear" was mainly used as a joke against those who see the games as mindless slaughter-fests. Interesting how things are now.
This shows a level of self-awareness - as in not taking the whole thing too seriously - that keeps it out of tryhard grimdark edgelord mysoulisablackpitofhatred territory.

(Not that being self-referential does'nt have its own level of tryhard. The easter eggs in RAGE for example, which were featured in the trailers for some reason because haha geddit?! I'm glad New Id found their footing.)
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby Chris » Wed May 13, 2020 11:35 pm

jdredalert wrote:What I mean is that in the context of Doom creation (the personal tastes of the creators in entertainment media in general, the overall age of the team, the target demographic of product, etc), I really think they were trying to appeal to a specific public: mostly teenagers and young adults.

Of course. They were, after all, spending a lot of time, money, and effort making a game to sell. At some level they had to be mindful of their target audience and what they would like. However, they were themselves young adults at the time too. Them finding something cool that happens to align with what their target audience also finds cool, isn't what I'd call try-hard cool and edgy. "Try-hard" is when the "effort level and emotional investment is excessively high for the level of play in which they are competing." In this context, that means trying unnecessarily hard to look cool/edgy, generally despite not really knowing how to or why. Making something you like, which happens to ruffle some feathers, and sharing/selling it to others that also like it isn't what I'd call try-hard cool and edgy.

jdredalert wrote:I don't know if you like or dislike the new Doom games, but in my opinion, both statements apply to them, and I love those games.

I waffle a bit back and forth on them. I like that it harkens back to a style of game that doesn't compromise its gameplay for story, but I do feel it misses the mark in what the original Doom games were like. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, there's nothing saying new-Doom has to be like old-Doom. But I haven't had a chance to play them, so whether its a try-hard attempt at re-capturing what Doom was, or a legitimate attempt to make something similar-but-not-quite-the-same-as old-Doom that the developers themselves preferred, is hard to say. New-id isn't as open as old-id, they're under the very corporate fist of Bethesda, and their PR is painfully filtered, so who knows what the actual influences and thought processes of the developers were.

jdredalert wrote:isn't that trying to be cool? The text could have been written in a more serious tone, and the cute rabbit beheaded and impaled adds nothing to the already shallow plot, but was appealing to the above-mentioned target audience.

I don't find the Ep 3 ending out of place for the kind of sci-fi action/horror setting Doom was styled on. The bait-and-switch ending (with shot of the cute rabbits in a lush field, making it seem like you won, then turning to see dead rabbits in a ruined city, showing the demons got through anyway) is also not out of place for the overall tone.

jdredalert wrote:PS: i don't want to digress even more from the Doomguy name topic, but about the metalheads being edgy-lords: we can't say all of them are. I know i am not one of them. But let's be honest here, they were no saints, especially during the 80's and 90's.

Too much guilt by association for my tastes. Metal music had been around for decades, there was undeniable skill and quality in it, and while it still had an element of counter-culture to it, styling some of their music after popular metal bands doesn't mean they were repeating that tough/edgy message. Especially in an early 90s PC game that was a mix of sci-fi, fantasy, action, and horror. How many edgelords were using DOS? Or BBSs?
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby leileilol » Wed May 13, 2020 11:39 pm

I never found Doom to be particularly edgy at all besides some of the ending texts and the registered version's photosourced corpses (which is more on the uncanny side on how they don't mesh with the rest of the sprites). and I never thought it was "all about the metal!!! *d_e1m1 riff played within Microsoft Synthesizer* yeh old school!!! \m/ PROD to be a DooMer *STFEVL0*" either. The farty synths of E1M7 sure is metal alright.

It's not like it was Man Enough, The Executioners, Franko, Bloodstorm, etc. Doom's alleged edginess isn't anywhere near those, and Doom wasn't exactly pioneering in videogame gore either when Midway did aplenty in arcades since 1988.
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Re: About Doomguy's name...

Postby nes bros » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:33 am

the doom hanging corpses never felt out of place to me, maybe I was just too obsessed over the gameplay to notice and just got used to it.
as for the music, yea, it felt fast paced and fun, but never really struck me as "edgy". I really, again, never paid any attention to how they feel I guess, but they're not edgy, or tryhard to be "tubular" on id's part.
then, on the original post's meaning. the name "you" works, unless you're referring to a "him", in which case I always liked doomguy, the doom guy, the doom marine, or, in very rare cases, the slayer. if you have to name him, I'm biased towards Taggart cause I read those before I saw any other named doomguys.
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