What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:36 am

Enjay wrote:more colourful

But how, though? If anything Q2 looks a lot more bland to me. Quake 1 for all its browns at the beginning had much better variety and atmosphere than Q2 ever did. In fact Q2 felt either dirty, or sterile, with mostly 3 main colors: green, yellow, and red (sky), but maybe that's just me.

I found its enemies also a lot less fun to kill, despite the otherwise cool tricks the AI employs sometimes and how they try to shoot the player one last time before dying. I guess it's really just a matter of preference ultimately, but I would never choose Q2 over the original, all the charm and magic is gone in the sequels, and speaking of which, I do agree that Quake is easily id's most experimental franchise, it changed radically between entries. It's definitely nothing like Doom 2, 3, and 64 were for Doom 1. And yeah, very low poly models (primarily used for enemies) do tend to look awful compared to well made sprites. I would say that before HL1 came, 3D models for enemies used to be quite jarring in that period.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Kinsie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:15 am

Enjay wrote:It still bothers me that two completely different game settings have names that imply that the second is an in-world sequel of the first though. In fact, the naming of the whole Quake series is a mess from that perspective.

All the other names Id tried applying to the game apparently sucked (the closest to acceptable was "WOR") so they just stuck a number onto the end of the last one and rolled on.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Enjay » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:44 am

As you say, lowskill, I guess it's a matter of preference and taste but I find Quake2 far more vibrant and colourful.

For what it's worth here are the palettes (Q then Q2)
ImageImage

It isn't just down to the the colours in the palette, of course, but how they're used. In Quake 2 oranges, reds and blues are used far more commonly in bigger easier to see blocks and highlights than in Quake. Q2 has reddish crates, orange skies, blue and red lasers in the maps, reddish computers everywhere, coloured projectiles from the weapons, coloured highlights on the enemies (shoulder pads, blue "glows" on their guns etc), the weapons in your hand are varied in appearance and colour and many textures have variety within them... The look of Quake is dominated by brown - the menu is brown, the weapons (except the super nailgun) are brown, the wood, stone and rock textures used throughout are brown-dominated. Even the techy textures are generally brown metal borders surrounding beige-brown corrugated and riveted metal panels. Many of the textures are quite uniform in appearance within the texture (i.e. a big solid wall of similar bricks in Q versus a metal wall with lots of techy highlights in Q2 (exceptions in both directions of course). Many of the enemies too are brown (or beige) dominated or give the impression of brownishness (both types of human foot-soldiers, ogres, zombies, fiends, knights in their shining brown armour...) Regardless of what's in the palette, the overriding impression is brown because of how the palette is used. Quake is almost universally regarded as a "brown game". There has to be a reason that so many people have that impression of it. Quake 2 has an advantage with dynamic lighting - because it was in there as part of the map design, dynamic lighting helps with Quake2 in a way that it doesn't in Quake because the game was pretty much pre- that technology. So even if a room is a bit dull-ish texture-wise, in Quake 2 it may be lit in a way that gives it more colour and appeal. Overall, I just feel that variety of colour is more apparent in Quake2 than it is in Quake.

lowskill. wrote:I found its enemies also a lot less fun to kill...

I generally like humanoid enemies, perhaps relatively low hit point ones but with weapons that can more-or-less be believable as enemy counterparts of what the player is carrying (as evidenced by many of the Doom mods that I've made - Marine Assault, anything featuring Inca soldiers, Gene-Tech etc). Therefore the Strogg, as modified humans, cover that quite well. Quake's ogres, blobs (spawn), wizards, fiends are just less appealing to me (even though some of them are very good enemies - I'm not disputing that (but not the spawn, terrible enemy with comedic sounds that (IMO) completely jar with the feeling of the game and are horrible to fight)). Again, all personal preference.


Kinsie wrote:All the other names Id tried applying to the game apparently sucked (the closest to acceptable was "WOR") so they just stuck a number onto the end of the last one and rolled on.

Thanks, yes, I'd heard that before but, honestly, I think that's a weak line for them to take. "We are a creative powerhouse, we have made some of the world's most innovative games but, you know, we just can't think of a name this time around." Come on id, you can do better than that. Or maybe all game names since then have been rubbish and "Quake" is the apogee (ahem) of game names that all other games are overshadowed by.

Actually, if you take a step back and try to disassociate what you know about the game and just think of the word "Quake" as a name, I think it's a bit of a rubbish name anyway (I remember thinking that in 96 too). To me, it says nothing about the game. What's more, as I understand it, the development cycle of the game was such that by the time the game came out, all the in-game reasons for it being called Quake had basically evaporated.

Regardless of the reasoning, the Quake name in Q, Q2, Q3 etc implies some kind of tie-in between the different games of the series and it's at odds with how things feel when you actually go from one to the next as a player.

If the "we can't think of a good name" reason is genuine, then maybe they should have just called it "iD game number 7" (or whatever number is correct). I actually think I'd have preferred that. ;)
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:34 am

Enjay wrote:
lowskill. wrote:I found its enemies also a lot less fun to kill...

I generally like humanoid enemies, perhaps relatively low hit point ones but with weapons that can more-or-less be believable as enemy counterparts of what the player is carrying (as evidenced by many of the Doom mods that I've made - Marine Assault, anything featuring Inca soldiers, Gene-Tech etc). Therefore the Strogg, as modified humans, cover that quite well. Quake's ogres, blobs (spawn), wizards, fiends are just less appealing to me (even though some of them are very good enemies - I'm not disputing that (but not the spawn, terrible enemy with comedic sounds that (IMO) completely jar with the feeling of the game and are horrible to fight)). Again, all personal preference.

I do find humanoid enemies nice too, and sometimes I prefer them over something else - if the said thing isn't unique, however, then no -, however in the case at hand it just so happens that the enemies of Q1 make the combat more fun and dynamic than Q2 ever does, or so it feels to me anyway. I don't necessarily like Q1's enemies more as much as they're just more interesting to fight, but I agree that Q1's bestiary has its issues as well, no game is perfect after all. Q2 had the parasite which is far, far too tough and shitty, while Q1 had the Spawn, literally just a mad jumping blob that explodes in your face. Well, at the very least it dies with one Shotgun blast since it has very low health, but it was still a dumb enemy nonetheless.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby BunnyWithBeans » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:14 pm

lowskill. wrote:Speaking of QuKe 2, I've always found its arsenal and bestiary vastly inferior to that of the first, less variety and less interesting. The laser cybernetic dogs, whatever they're called, are some of the most obnoxious enemy I've seen in a long time, when I first played the game they were an instant turn off.

Also, for some reason they also removed the pain chances from the enemies on Hard... no wonder it felt so tedious at first, so I never ramp up the difficulty higher than Medium in that game. Quake, for all its flaws, was overall a much more fun and better balanced game that Q2 ever was IMO.


Quake 2 is okay, I remember playing the demo a while back. It's a nice tech demo but I wouldn't consider it one of Id's best shooters.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:50 pm

I'm with Enjay on Q2, virtually point for point. Quake always felt like a tech demo (Hey we can 3D now, behold!), it had *SERIOUS* balancing issues (worst sin: making an enemy with an explosive attack the grunt type baddie of the game) and the game really got tedious to the end. And the theme of course - it was the worst form of gothic imaginable. Gothic architecture looks great when it can play with color, but here all is brown - brown and no end in sight.

One of the most appealing things in Quake 2 was the colored lighting which helped a great deal to offset the limitations of having to work with only 256 colors.
But nothing can beat the theme of a futuristic hi-tech alien world that was very well executed. And then that music track on the first level - it had me hooked nearly instantly.

These days my major gripe with Quake 2 is that many of those old mods come with a game DLL but none of these schmucks cared to include the source code, which makes creating a new source port rather futile because it wouldn't be able to play any of these.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby sinisterseed » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:27 pm

I knew you would say that, you've said before that Q2 is your favorite, but hey so did I with Q1 ;).

I can see why others prefer Q2 instead since it has a far more consistent design, but it was perhaps a bit too consistent. Just like Q1 is mostly brown to you, so is Q2 mostly green to me, and Q1 had more variety in its levels despite the overused browns. Q2 was base after base, and not much more. And when it comes to balancing issues, oh c'mon, you're not even mentioning the fact that Q2 removed the pain chances from the enemies on Hard? Old Q1 didn't have such a bad design choice. Because of it, Q2 is virtually unplayable for me on that skill since killing any enemy is just plain tedious, might as well take the pacifist route in this case. Apart from the crappy Spawn, I'm struggling to find issues in Q1's balance.

Q2 has its merits for sure, such as having an actual, proper story this time around, amazing music, consistent albeit a bit too consistent levels for its own good, and proper bosses (though fairly weak), but in terms of actual gameplay I can never think of it as better than either Q1 or Q3A. Does it have any noteworthy mods though? I tried looking for some mods a while ago, but found only single levels mostly, and I'm more of an episode kind of guy. Or compilations at least.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Graf Zahl » Sat Jun 13, 2020 2:08 pm

lowskill. wrote:I can see why others prefer Q2 instead since it has a far more consistent design, but it was perhaps a bit too consistent. Just like Q1 is mostly brown to you, so is Q2 mostly green to me,


The first level was mainly red. :P

lowskill. wrote: and Q1 had more variety in its levels despite the overused browns.


No, it was just gothic castle after gothic castle, one more maze-y than the last.

lowskill. wrote: Q2 was base after base, and not much more.


No, it was bases, warehouses, laboratories, not to forget that hilarious processing plant :mrgreen:. It also had lots of outside areas, plus gameplay that was a bit more than pushing doors and shooting switches.

lowskill. wrote: And when it comes to balancing issues, oh c'mon, you're not even mentioning the fact that Q2 removed the pain chances from the enemies on Hard? Old Q1 didn't have such a bad design choice.


So what? I never played it on hard, my preferred level was medium.

lowskill. wrote: Because of it, Q2 is virtually unplayable for me on that skill since killing any enemy is just plain tedious, might as well take the pacifist route in this case. Apart from the crappy Spawn, I'm struggling to find issues in Q1's balance.


Like I said, the Ogre was a major issue for me as a grunt type enemy. And that "crappy Spawn" was in fact so bad that it killed episode 4 for me. It's the type of enemy that should not be done (TM).

lowskill. wrote:Q2 has its merits for sure, such as having an actual, proper story this time around, amazing music, consistent albeit a bit too consistent levels for its own good, and proper bosses (though fairly weak), but in terms of actual gameplay I can never think of it as better than either Q1 or Q3A. Does it have any noteworthy mods though? I tried looking for some mods a while ago, but found only single levels mostly, and I'm more of an episode kind of guy. Or compilations at least.


There are quite a few episodes. But many are killed by having a game DLL without source, so you are stuck with ports that leave the interface intact and use 32 bit. And of course only Windows is allowed.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Rachael » Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:27 pm

I'm also part of the "Q2 was better" crowd. If you think the game is too brown - you're right, it is, in the first part - but wait until you get to the last level set (the palace/city) - it becomes much more colorful then. Even the Factory+Big Gun level sets were less brown than most of the game.

The colorful lights Graf mentioned were used to great effect also in the outdoor areas in the various levels, as well. Especially in the jail level set, at least I think.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby InsanityBringer » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:00 pm

tbh, I like quake 2 a lot, but after replaying Quake 1 with the copper mod, I've developed a lot of fondness for the really simple gameplay loop for it.

Quake feels so underdeveloped. Weapons switch instantly (reminds me of Wolf3d), locales are sort of limited, the bestiary has holes (but is already much better than Doom 1), and so on, but this basic intense gameplay is so freaking fun. Rapidly fighting through a decent variety of monsters being able to almost instantly switch to the right tool for the job has some insane charm. Quake 2 is fun, but it's definitely a lot slower and more dull.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby BunnyWithBeans » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:18 pm

InsanityBringer wrote:tbh, I like quake 2 a lot, but after replaying Quake 1 with the copper mod, I've developed a lot of fondness for the really simple gameplay loop for it.

Quake feels so underdeveloped. Weapons switch instantly (reminds me of Wolf3d), locales are sort of limited, the bestiary has holes (but is already much better than Doom 1), and so on, but this basic intense gameplay is so freaking fun. Rapidly fighting through a decent variety of monsters being able to almost instantly switch to the right tool for the job has some insane charm. Quake 2 is fun, but it's definitely a lot slower and more dull.


It feels underdeveloped because it is. Originally it was going to include RPG and other neat ideas elements but by the time they finished the engine and were somewhat through development they were like "Hey, let's just make it Doom but 3D."

Don't even get me started on how useless the axe is when it was originally going to be a wayyy more important weapon.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby mjr4077au » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:13 pm

I personally prefer Quake over Quake II for many reasons, back in the day and even now. Mostly nostalgia as I played it more, but I also like the individual styles of each episode (even though that probably adds to the "tech demo"/inconsistent factor that's been mentioned) and I think the game has come a long way with source ports that interpolate model keyframes etc.

Even today I find it so hard to get into Quake II. My main gripe to this day is that the aiming by default is just not spot on and I find that so janky. I found a Russian port (Berserker) that fixes that and I backported that aiming fix into Yamagi Quake II, but even when I thought my last roadblock was gone, I still just can't get into it. Perhaps when Raze becomes stable and boring I can find myself distractionless :wink: :D.

In saying all of this, I don't disagree with many of the points posted. I thought the grenade-throwing ogre was tough as in the 2nd episode, but with modern controls you just circle-strafe them without much fuss. The spawn enemies in the 4th episode are definitely a low point in what otherwise is my favourite episode. I also completely agree with Enjay about the naming of Quake II, it should have been named something else.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:51 am

Quake II should have been named Doom 3. It has much more in common with Doom than Quake, but in the end it was a marketing stint.

My main disappointment with Quake comes directly from Duke Nukem 3D. Here we had a game that truly opened up the possibilities of what a shooter can do and then came Quake, which, while technically superior was really defined by its simplistic gameplay. When discussing the merits of both games, the only thing Quake had going for it was "it's true 3D".

With Quake 2 there's something else: When I got this game I had just purchased a Voodoo graphics card a few days before so it was the first thing I ever experienced with true hardware rendering. So much of this experience mirrors Doom, i.e. seeing something ground breaking for the very first time. But even factoring that out, I don't think my opinion about Quake would have changed much. I prefer tech-styled levels over gothic architecture every time and for something gothic to really impress me it needs to be outstanding. But most of Quake was rather run-of-the-mill after factoring out the true 3D thing. A lot if this becomes obvious when looking at Doom remakes of Quake levels and seeing how small they are. Quake 2 offset the problem with its unit design.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby mjr4077au » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:59 am

Can't disagree with anything you've said there. I think Half-Life brings a fantastic combination of interactive gameplay with the 3D graphics, albeit with the now common linear gameplay that has its own pros and cons.

Because we weren't flush with cash, I was rocking a 4MB S3 ViRGE DX back then and because of that, Quake II didn't look overly better than Quake for me. SiN extended the engine with coloured lighting in software mode which was cool, however then the 233MHz Pentium MMX was struggling for life at that point.

Speaking of SiN, definitely my favourite game on the Quake II engine and I still play it to this day. I'm glad the IP is now in fresh hands and I'm interested to see what Nightdive do with this upcoming remaster. I have high hopes and fingers crossed for a source code release to Ritual's modified Quake II engine as they've released source in the past.
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Re: What's a game you don't play for a stupid reason?

Postby Graf Zahl » Sun Jun 14, 2020 3:36 am

A SiN source release would be great. Although the original still works surprisingly well on modern systems, quite unlike many other games of its vintage.
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