EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Chris » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:09 pm

JadedLexi wrote:I don't think that's what he implied at all, way to take it out of context.

That was my take on it. People have compared it to youtube's contentid before, and that's specifically why it's a problem, yet the post I quoted made it out to be a positive (or at least not-negative) like it was supposed to calm people down. Comparing something that people don't like and see as a failure, to something else they don't like and see as a potential failure in a similar way, isn't an effective way of calming people. How else was the statement to be inferred?
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Matt » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:25 pm

JadedLexi wrote:
Chris wrote:
Hellser wrote:From what I can see of the new law, it's meant to protect content creators - which is no different than what YouTube has been doing for years.

You say that as if Youtube's ContentID has been a success that people like.

I don't think that's what he implied at all, way to take it out of context.

Chris has already responded, but when I first saw those posts it seemed that Hellser's mention of Youtube's ContentID was in the spirit of "this bad thing has already been implemented voluntarily by private actors and thus far it hasn't totally killed the internet" and Chris's response was pushing back that it's still bad (and I'm gonna read in: in a much more inescapable manner of bad since it's going to have force of law rather than just one company's internal policy).


My sympathies right now are with hardcore_gamer's points, even if they are often technically incorrect we have to remember that anytime a law is enacted it will find itself being interpreted and enforced by people who have at least one or more of the following:

1. an axe to grind against a specific subset of those subject to the law
2. no skin in the game if they cause harm with overenforcement
3. crucial decisionmaking (gatekeeping) power over things they do not understand
4. a lot of confidence that their victims will not have the time or money to challenge anything in court

Which is to say: a lot of wrong interpretations will be highly relevant to how this actually plays out for a lot of people. This includes whoever is writing any algorithm to help enforce the law, with the additional:

5. not enough QA testing to work out how this will fuck up on edge cases


Anyway, since basically every ZDoom-related Discord or forum I frequent has a no-politics rule and I'm guessing we're right on the edge of that (or already in it subject to a tentative ad-hoc exemption for relevance), I created this discord if anyone's interested.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby hardcore_gamer » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:08 pm

I just finished watching Sargon's livestream about his experience at the EU vote (he was present there) and how the crowd there was behaving/acting during the debate and vote. It wasn't exactly very reassuring. According to him there was lots of arrogance and once the vote passed most of the parliament started celebrating and cheering. Not only that, but when some random dude in the parliament shouted something along the lines of "ARTICLE 13 IS A THREAT TO FREE SPEECH!" he actually got booed at by members of the parliament. He also said that there is a strong level of hate towards silicon valley with some there going as far as claiming them to be more powerful than the EU, so clearly the EU has little interest in dealing/working with them.

Even more worryingly, he also said that almost all the people in the parliament were tech illiterate morons and that they actually don't know yet/have any actual plans on how they intend to implement any this, but rather they are just planing on making this work somehow as they go along. You can go watch Sargon's full stream if you want all the details, though much of the video is just him talking about how he hates the EU and other political stuff so not everybody might have the desire to watch the whole thing. Still it's there for those who want to watch it.

On the bright side, if it's true what Sargon says that they have no idea what they are doing and that they are just making shit up as they go along then at least there is some simmer of hope that this actually isn't all a part of some grand plan, or else their plan would actually make sense. Let's hope the public backslash against this will destroy them.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Chris » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:25 pm

Matt wrote:Chris has already responded, but when I first saw those posts it seemed that Hellser's mention of Youtube's ContentID was in the spirit of "this bad thing has already been implemented voluntarily by private actors and thus far it hasn't totally killed the internet" and Chris's response was pushing back that it's still bad (and I'm gonna read in: in a much more inescapable manner of bad since it's going to have force of law rather than just one company's internal policy).

I'd take it even a step further and say it's worse than Google's policy having the force of law.

Being an internal policy gives Google leeway in how to enforce it, changing how to deal with the issues as it sees fit. For example, at first it was flagging things left and right, taking down things that would clearly be classified as fair use, or things that could be argued to be fair use, or even officially licensed stuff (e.g. stock media, where you're allowed to redistribute images or music clips or whatever as part of your brand that you've paid a license for, but you can't if you haven't paid a license; a generic filter won't be able to differentiate who is or isn't licensed to use a given piece of media). This led Google to change, adding the ability for copyright holders to say the infringing material can stay up but revenue gets redirected to them, as well as allowing the person who put it up to prove they're allowed to use it and reclaim the revenue stream. However this created another problem, where during the period of contention the claimant was getting the revenue for a video while the creator got nothing, and even if the creator won, the claimant kept the money they got for that period and the creator would only get money from that point onward (which was usually after the majority of views/revenue was generated). Eventually, Google changed this so the revenue was held in escrow during the period of contention, and whoever wins the dispute gets the generated revenue.

As a law, being able to change as a result of unforeseen issues cropping up is going to be a lot harder (as it was Google was pretty slow, governments will be a lot slower). For one, AFAIK the company utilizing such a filter must take down (or not allow to be uploaded) the offending material, period. No redirection of revenue, either the copyright holder allows it through (bypassing the law-enforced filter), or its not allowed through if it matches. Secondly, there's a vast difference between how a site like imgur would best work with a content filter than how a site like reddit would. It will take a lot more than a single company changing its internal policy to fix its unique problems, especially if there happens to be a run of bad case-law from non-tech-minded judges and juries.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Wiw » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:58 am

hardcore_gamer wrote:
Hellser wrote:Article 13 applies to any website operating in EU territories. A vast majority of Doom websites do not operate in EU territories, and yes. That includes ZDoom. From what I can see of the new law, it's meant to protect content creators - which is no different than what YouTube has been doing for years. They are not controlling what you see, and if you want to go through the law and find that specific part that has you scared, go ahead.


The law makes it mandatory to install content filters (which only the rich companies will afford, and even for them it would be super expensive) that block all content that don't 100% belong to the person posting it. This would break the entire internet. It would not be possible for example to take a screenshot from a game you are playing and then share it with others because you don't own the copyright to the game. Game mods would also be illegal for the same reason for anybody to make and share within the EU. That includes Doom mods.
User was warned for this post.-JadedLexi


From what I've heard, the small businesses are exempt from the filters rule. So... I guess that's something.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby scalliano » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:51 am

phantombeta wrote:
hardcore_gamer wrote:That includes Doom mods.

Except it doesn't. We actually have outright permission* from Id Software to mod the game.

(* Hint, read classic Doom's EULA)


id may have our backs for certain, but ISP-level upload filters may not take that into account. Given how inept ContentID is when it comes to false flags, I have no faith in a sweeping internet-wide system being any better. In fact, chances are it will be even more dim-witted.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby ramon.dexter » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:51 am

As is written in one of my favourite songs, time will tell.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby hardcore_gamer » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:21 am

Things continue to get worse: https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireS ... t-57768368

"European authorities are planning to slap internet companies like Google, Twitter and Facebook with big fines if they don't take down extremist content within one hour."

"Under the proposal, internet companies would have to take measures, including installing automated systems, to prevent content from being re-uploaded after being removed the first time."

"Companies that fail to comply would face fines of up to 4 percent of their annual global turnover."

I know this isn't directly related to article 13 and 11, but it still sort of is.

I am not going to start an argument about what is or isn't extremist content. Instead, I have the following questions:

1. How on earth is an automated system going to understand what is or isn't hate or extremist speech? If somebody mentions jew and hitler in the same sentence will this get banned regardless of context for example?

2. Will this apply only to the big specific companies or to all web based services? Because if it's the later then the burden of installing expensive automated systems for smaller internet entities just became even worse.

Honestly, it's become clear that the EU has no regarded for internet freedom whatsoever. Using automated systems to detect copyright violation is hard enough. Now they want firms to create automated systems that can ban specific types of speech and opinions as well. This won't even be possible to enforce correctly, unless firms just blindly ban everything that gets flagged.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Apeirogon » Sat Sep 15, 2018 12:21 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:Things continue to get worse: https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireS ... t-57768368

"European authorities are planning to slap internet companies like Google, Twitter and Facebook with big fines if they don't take down extremist content within one hour."

"Under the proposal, internet companies would have to take measures, including installing automated systems, to prevent content from being re-uploaded after being removed the first time."

"Companies that fail to comply would face fines of up to 4 percent of their annual global turnover."

I know this isn't directly related to article 13 and 11, but it still sort of is.

I am not going to start an argument about what is or isn't extremist content. Instead, I have the following questions:

1. How on earth is an automated system going to understand what is or isn't hate or extremist speech? If somebody mentions jew and hitler in the same sentence will this get banned regardless of context for example?

2. Will this apply only to the big specific companies or to all web based services? Because if it's the later then the burden of installing expensive automated systems for smaller internet entities just became even worse.

Honestly, it's become clear that the EU has no regarded for internet freedom whatsoever. Using automated systems to detect copyright violation is hard enough. Now they want firms to create automated systems that can ban specific types of speech and opinions as well. This won't even be possible to enforce correctly, unless firms just blindly ban everything that gets flagged.

As I said in previous similar topic, it almost impossible to implement in nowadays internet.
Becuse it require
1) much money to create, develop and maintain such system (mention, we talk about EU, which not something "smol" in every single aspect of politic/social/economical life)
2) that internet giant, like google, and internet providers/site hosters agreed to abandon its own profit (imagine something like "pornohub ban all porn video and now show only video with kittens")
3) total annihilation of freedom of speech and human rights (at least in EU countries)

Any mentioned point is somethinп from the bookcase with the science fiction, where placed asimov, heinlein and clark.
Because
1) nobody in sane state spent billion and billion to ban. PROBABLY, dangerous information
2) capitalism/buisines(or how name it, I dont know) newer, NEWER, miss out it profit
3) people which now live in europe, and all other world, are sucessor of people which survive WW2, WW1, spanish flu pandemic (which much worse than both WW, because from it died 10% of people from WHOLE earth, google it), napoleonic wars, etc, etc and etc disadvantages of this betters of the worlds. Do you really think they will endure this spittle in the face "he-he-he I will prohibit freedom of speechand in the internet and nobody stops me 8-) "?
A little populistly, but still...

Plus, how much time "officicial" authority try to shut down piratebay?! Countles time. And what with it now?! Nothing, I still can download anything from it, I just checked.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby wildweasel » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:48 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:You can go watch Sargon's full stream if you want all the details, though much of the video is just him talking about how he hates the EU and other political stuff

And you still consider this a fair source for your news? :?

[edit] Actually, looking at your arguments throughout this entire thing, you've been acting in bad faith pretty much the entire time, and while I personally don't give much of a crap about your political leanings, I do want to eliminate bad-faith arguments wherever I can. So, with the agreement of my staff, I hereby declare that you are No Longer Our Problem.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Rachael » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:10 pm

To add to that, harcore_gamer has been treading on super-thin ice for a long while now. This was inevitable given his behaviour.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby leodoom85 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:52 pm

geez....the negativity of this thread amuses me a bit. This is considering that the war is not over but I only see people throwing the towel...
A pity.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby jdredalert » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:39 pm

Rachael wrote:To add to that, harcore_gamer has been treading on super-thin ice for a long while now. This was inevitable given his behaviour.


I'm surprised he wasn't banned on that "your game won't be worth to be sold" debate last month.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Rachael » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:05 pm

jdredalert wrote:I'm surprised he wasn't banned on that "your game won't be worth to be sold" debate last month.

If he hadn't done that, he probably would still be around right now, despite what he did in this thread.

It's a situation of a straw that broke the camel's back.
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Re: EU Parliament Passes Articles 11/13

Postby Nems » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:28 am

leodoom85 wrote:geez....the negativity of this thread amuses me a bit. This is considering that the war is not over but I only see people throwing the towel...
A pity.


A lot of people are doing that, which is upsetting. :\

I made a post about it on Doomworld (something of a heated post, I'll admit, so I might have struck some nerves) but this is exactly what governments and corporations want when they try to push through laws and policies like this. They want people to throw in the towel, to give up, to just roll over and take it. They're hoping for it and banking on it. Yeah, I get that things look bleak and insurmountable. I often feel that way myself. However, I don't want anyone to have to suffer through crap like this now or ever. Apathy, indifference, and surrender regarding these issues hurts everyone. We need people to band together and pitch a fit, get mad/angry, get involved in whatever way possible, engage in civil disobedience if that's what's needed. I'd rather perish and know that I made a difference in preventing/overturning these kinds of policies than live to preserve my own life and did nothing.

Whether we like it or not, we're a global community now and have been since the internet connected us all together. We have to stand up to crap like this because even if something like this ain't happening in our country of residence, other countries do take note of what happens and have a tendency to copy/paste those same policies. What happens in the EU can and often will have an effect on NA and beyond and vice versa.

Call me a bleeding heart but I care too much about other people to sit by and watch this crap go on, which - again - is why it upset me to see people willing to give up so quickly. Regardless if it passes or not, I'm gonna do what I can to stand up to crap like this and I hope other people will. Every little bit helps.
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