Bethesda blocks resale of a game

If it's not ZDoom, it goes here.
User avatar
SouthernLion
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by SouthernLion »

I'm having a hard time understanding this. In the United States of America, I can legally sell my car to absolutely anybody in the entire country. Even a felon. He just can't legally drive it without an operator's license. I can sell it for any price I want, any time I want, in any condition I want, and there is nothing any car company can EVER do to stop me. I can sell any of my guns legally to anybody of age that isn't a felon any time I want, at any price I want, in any condition I want, and there is nothing any of the gun companies can EVER do to stop me. Suddenly EULA some company's lawyer wrote up is more authority than national or state law? Or am I missing something here? If the EULA said "Click Accept and we own your children", it doesn't make it true. State and Federal law makes that line meaningless.
Last edited by SouthernLion on Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
wildweasel
Posts: 21706
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:33 pm
Preferred Pronouns: He/Him
Operating System Version (Optional): A lot of them
Graphics Processor: Not Listed
Contact:

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by wildweasel »

It's just that there's no court precedent about it, and the defendant doesn't have the legal budget to fight it in court, so it is indeterminate whether that's legal or not.
User avatar
SouthernLion
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by SouthernLion »

wildweasel wrote:It's just that there's no court precedent about it, and the defendant doesn't have the legal budget to fight it in court, so it is indeterminate whether that's legal or not.
Ah, I see...
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Posts: 49056
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Graf Zahl »

RexS wrote:Suddenly EULA some company's lawyer wrote up is more authority than national or state law? Or am I missing something here? If the EULA said "Click Accept and we own your children", it doesn't make it true. State and Federal law makes that line meaningless.

You are of course correct, but that doesn't stop corporate bullies from trying anyway. And with copyrighted material the minefield you are in will inevitably get a lot more dangerous compared to some physical item you are selling. But the main problem here was the "new", like everybody said. If you sell something as "new", this implies something you normally cannot deliver and that was the hook here to shut down the sale.

Also, haven't you read the disclaimer in nearly every EULA that any invalid clause in it may not invalidate the whole thing? That's there for the precise reason that they KNOW that some part of it have no legal relevance and are only there to scare their customers.
User avatar
Rachael
Posts: 13532
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:31 pm
Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Contact:

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Rachael »

Graf while I understand your concerns I feel you are missing something much more insidious happening - something that I know would concern you.

This is a game resale. No matter if it was offered "new" or not, this is not the last we're going to see of it. Bethesda's lawyers attacked some powerless dude who couldn't fight back - and they won. You really think this PR disaster is going to stop them from trying again? No - now they know they can bully people, and they're going to go after second-hand sales a lot more.

We have a new kind of copyright troll on the block now, and there's a reason why Leonard French got a bit rebellious in his video, trying to call for people with disposable income and for other lawyers to resist this fuckery. He is, perhaps in his own way, trying to fight back. If history has taught us anything, it's taught us that it starts exactly with something like this. After that, it only gets a whole lot worse. I know you know how game companies have been trying for decades now to completely stamp out second-hand sales, and this is just another rung in that ladder.

The "new" thing was just an excuse. The next time we hear of this - and we will - that word will not be involved.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic - it's just that I've watched the corporate game long enough to know that this is how they do things.
User avatar
InsanityBringer
Posts: 3386
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:53 pm
Location: opening the forbidden box

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by InsanityBringer »

beth's legal department has grown an incredibly unpleasant reputation over the past many years, starting with the scrolls incident and more recently them threatening an indie dev for using "prey" in their game title (it was part of a longer phrase, of course, the game wasn't just named "prey") so they had to change the word prey to an alternate spelling. The rest of the company doesn't seem to be any more favorable, with them doing the whole "one day only advance copies" thing for game reviews and all of that. it's a mess
User avatar
zrrion the insect
Posts: 2411
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:58 pm
Location: Time Station 1: Moon of Glendale

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by zrrion the insect »

So he's selling something that isn't new as new. If he isn't authorized to sell new Bethesda games then he can't do that. Places like Walmart and Gamestop can sell new Bethesda games despite having bought the game from Bethesda because they are authorized retailers. This man isn't. I imagine bethesda's legal goons have decided that it would harm Bethesda's ability to negotiate retail contracts in the future if they have someone without a contract has sold a new game.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Posts: 49056
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Graf Zahl »

Rachael wrote:Graf while I understand your concerns I feel you are missing something much more insidious happening - something that I know would concern you.

This is a game resale. No matter if it was offered "new" or not, this is not the last we're going to see of it. Bethesda's lawyers attacked some powerless dude who couldn't fight back - and they won. You really think this PR disaster is going to stop them from trying again? No - now they know they can bully people, and they're going to go after second-hand sales a lot more.

We have a new kind of copyright troll on the block now, and there's a reason why Leonard French got a bit rebellious in his video, trying to call for people with disposable income and for other lawyers to resist this fuckery. He is, perhaps in his own way, trying to fight back. If history has taught us anything, it's taught us that it starts exactly with something like this. After that, it only gets a whole lot worse. I know you know how game companies have been trying for decades now to completely stamp out second-hand sales, and this is just another rung in that ladder.

The "new" thing was just an excuse. The next time we hear of this - and we will - that word will not be involved.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic - it's just that I've watched the corporate game long enough to know that this is how they do things.
Oh, trust me, I know precisely what they are after here.There's many reasons why I refuse to give this industry any of my money.
But that still doesn't change that private resellers need to familiarize themselves a bit with commerce law to avoid getting into such situations. I have read stories about people getting into trouble for actions that seem downright banal compared to this one, but since they actually broke laws without knowing they couldn't do anything about it.
Just one piece of advice: If you live in Europe, never even think about selling clothes on eBay, especially larger amounts. The sharks are just waiting to devour you, if you just make the tiniest mistake.
User avatar
Rachael
Posts: 13532
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:31 pm
Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Contact:

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Rachael »

Well I admit I have absolutely no experience with European law, but that does sound pretty scary.

There are sharks chumming the water here, too, though, but I think it's even bigger sharks (Amazon, ebay, et al) that they might be afraid to mess with, because going all out with this silly campaign would cut into their profits, too.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Posts: 49056
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Graf Zahl »

Rachael wrote:Well I admit I have absolutely no experience with European law, but that does sound pretty scary.
The main problem here is the distinction between a commercial and a private reseller, because the legal requirements are very different. And once you sell stuff in a market segment where some pretty unpleasant players participate it can quickly become dangerous if you trip one of their hidden mines.

The case on display here is nearly a textbook example for this - some seemingly innocuous word was added to the article description, and behold the mess.
User avatar
Apeirogon
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:57 am

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Apeirogon »

RexS wrote:State and Federal law
What difference between this two "laws"?
Graf Zahl wrote: Just one piece of advice: If you live in Europe, never even think about selling clothes on eBay, especially larger amounts. The sharks are just waiting to devour you, if you just make the tiniest mistake.
Why? And maybe you mean EU?
Because I live, territorially, in europe but I know a guy who sell handmade clothes, linens, blankets, etc on ebay without any consequences, around three or four years I think.
Or that was amazon...
User avatar
Rachael
Posts: 13532
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:31 pm
Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Contact:

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Rachael »

Apeirogon wrote:
RexS wrote:State and Federal law
What difference between this two "laws"?
In the US, each jurisdiction is sovereign. That means that the federal government, each state (aka province if you don't live in the US), each county, and each city has its own government. The majority of cities in the US are municipalities. Each layer of government is able to create and enforce its own laws. Each layer of government also has its own police force, as well. This is a bit unique to the US, not many countries have a multi-layered government that can do this, and yes it does make laws from city to city or state to state pretty fucking confusing.
User avatar
Graf Zahl
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Lead GZDoom+Raze Developer
Posts: 49056
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 10:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Graf Zahl »

There's no problem selling clothes commercially, if you obey your country's laws.

But it can become dangerous if private sellers get into focus of some of the sharks. They carefully watch what's going on so that they can take out any "competitor" that doesn't play by the rules 100% - but you cannot expect from a layperson to know all the pitfalls here. I've read some stories about people selling their old stuff but since they sold relatively large amounts at once they got reported to the tax authorities etc., because this was already considered commercial business.

Another thing where people must be careful is trademarks. You cannot advertise with trademarks that are not directly related to the article on sale.

Actually, the same rules apply for other product categories as well, but it is most dangerous if you sell stuff where some bottom feeding scum have a financial stake and will take action at the smallest opportunity to get rid of competition.
User avatar
Chris
Posts: 2940
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:07 am
Graphics Processor: ATI/AMD with Vulkan/Metal Support

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by Chris »

zrrion the insect wrote:So he's selling something that isn't new as new.
Except it is new. It hasn't been used, it hasn't been opened, it's still in its original factory packaging. "New" doesn't mean "from an authorized reseller". Vorys, the legal firm behind this mess, is trying to poke holes in the law by saying because it lacks the original warranty, it's materially different from the genuine thing and thus the first sale doctrine doesn't apply. But if that reasoning stood, the whole concept of the first sale doctrine is pretty much gone because any minor difference would render it unapplicable.
User avatar
zrrion the insect
Posts: 2411
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:58 pm
Location: Time Station 1: Moon of Glendale

Re: Bethesda blocks resale of a game

Post by zrrion the insect »

New does mean from an authorized reseller though.
Post Reply

Return to “Off-Topic”