Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:55 pm

Apeirogon wrote:Even obvious slag can be sold for 999.99 + taxes + shipping + on beer to the courier, if it have good advertising campaign.
Right... If it's good enough to just sell, and the creator has the means to just sell it, it's probably going to be just sold, isn't it? :shrug:
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby Apeirogon » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:12 pm

But you, as customer, still need to know something about what you want to buy.
If you, in case of games, dont see any screenshots and only see description like "Its good game. Very good game, I like it." would you buy it?
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:19 pm

If they didn't put any effort into presenting the game, it's a safe bet they didn't put any effort into the game itself.... So no.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby wildweasel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:14 pm

Apeirogon wrote:
NeuralStunner wrote:this ugly, unfunny garbage

Emmm.....you know that this is a banter over nowadays game industry, right?!

It's jokes that already stopped being funny six years before the game was released, rewritten to somehow be less funny, and with an art style that cannot decide what it wants to be, and fails to be good at any of it. You have probably heard every joke it wants to tell you.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby hardcore_gamer » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:26 pm

NeuralStunner wrote:
hardcore_gamer wrote:No, my point was that once you start charging money for something you can't hold it to the same standard as you would if it were released as a free mod.
This I can agree with. Standards of quality are important, but that's primarily mindset. Webcomics would be a great example: There's quite a few i wouldn't call "fine art" by any means, but they convey intent and effort. And then there's audience mindset. If this ugly, unfunny garbage can be successful, I can certainly come up with something good.

Besides, it's becoming easier than ever to make a prototype. Sure, 90% of "make your own game!!" toolkits are trash, and the market is oversaturated with default resource cashgrabs. (This is where we all bash on unity, go ahead, get it out of your system, no need to post it though because we've heard it all before.) But why actively discourage people from literally following in the footsteps of the guys that pioneered the industry? The original Id guys were working in their spare time to - get this - make something salable.

Frankly, the "this should just be a mod" argument is almost always just a thin coat of paint over the good old sense of entitlement. It's a short step from "I wouldn't buy this as a game but I would play it as a mod" to "I wouldn't pay for this game but i would torrent it". One of the most pirated games in the USA is Garry's Mod. It goes on sale for around $5 with amusing frequency - Ever spend $5 on snacks? How long did that enjoyment last? (Besides, the game is 90% code and the rest is primarily Half-Life 2 models. Asset reuse?! Grab the pitchforks, everyone!)

I'm not saying everyone should rush off and monetize the first thing they come up with. The first things I've made are crap, and I understand that's very common. But let's not fault people for dreaming, and trying to build that dream. If I want to put in my time and my effort to make something I would be fully willing to pay for, you really have no right to tell me "this should be free!"


You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?

And in regards to your point about gamer entitlement...I have some bad news for you mate: Gamers can afford to be entitled!!!, because they have a massive sea of options to choose from. They lose literally nothing if they just ignore your game. Also understand that the public/gamers won't react to your game in the same way if you release it as a paid product as they would if it were a mod. If you make a mod of decent quality (for a mod) and release it, then you might get some praise and people will enjoy it. But if you ask for money then people will look at it differently because then they will compare it to other things that cost money. And yes, having to pay for something DOES affect your enjoyment of it. Pizza tastes better if you are getting what you paid for, because else whatever enjoyment you might have gotten from eating it will be spoiled by the angry feelings of being ripped off.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby wildweasel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:15 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:
You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?

So, none of us should release anything commercially because you think we all suck. Okay.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby jdredalert » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:33 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:
[...]unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?


Unobtainable for 90% of ZDF community? Speak for yourself, maybe you can't reach the said level. For years we have saw people doing the most awesome things here in these forums. I strongly believe that most long time modders present here on these forums have a pretty sharp level of game design skills, so please, don't generalize things like that. I don't know about you but if the likes of Guncaster, High Noon Drifter or Blade of Agony decides to step on the commercial, stand-alone format, they''ll surely have my money. And there's also the subjectively of the term "better". What is better for me may not be better for you, "better" is a matter of taste. If you don't want to buy it, cool. Your opinion, your money, your rights. But the next guy may want to buy. And the next one. Like Rachel said, "you are no arbitrator to decide what people buy or do for a living", and your standards of what is a good game or game design shouldn't stop people from trying to enter the the indie gaming market. If anything, they are completely irrelevant. Most people won't start big, they need time, experience in order to become great, and that's true to even some big, AAA devs. Also, this:

But if you ask for money then people will look at it differently because then they will compare it to other things that cost money.


What kind of games are being compared again? I suppose you're not trying to compare an indie game developed by a small team to a big budget title right? Because if you are, that's just wrong. And in regards of the so called "old-school shooters revival" trend, most mods here beat the crap out of commercial, self-proclaimed old-school fpses (i'm looking at you, Strafe), so i still don't see how or where the "pizza logic" applies here in the context of GZDoom powered mods/games quality.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby Rachael » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:21 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:You are completely missing my point. My point wasn't that you CAN'T release your game, or that you don't have the right to do so. My point, was that unless your skills as a game designer have reached a certain level (a level which for 90% of us is unobtainable) there is simply no good reason to actually charge money for it. Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?


I've seen some wonderful things come out of here that's way better than you say it is. If people here make such low quality shit, then why are you even here?
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby jdredalert » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:34 pm

Apparently because he can play it for free i guess.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby Rachael » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:44 pm

jdredalert wrote:Apparently because he can play it for free i guess.

And that's exactly my point: It brings enjoyment, even to someone as cynical as he is. He wouldn't play it if he didn't enjoy it. Period. Even if he does, it won't be for long - it'll be either to find out he doesn't like it, in which case he moves the fuck on from it and finds something else to do to waste his useless time, or makes some sort of media or something to critique it.

People pay money for enjoyment. And yes, people find enjoyment for free. Some people WISH they could pay for something they could find for free - and you know what? If people did their hobbies for a living, they'd be a lot happier. I'm not saying all modding should cost money, I am just saying that the idea that he shouldn't ever have to pay money for something he wants to play, whether it's commercial or not, is absolutely ludicrous.

And I am also emphasizing a point: If you don't want to buy something, then DON'T! But let others decide that for themselves. You can give your opinion about it if you want to, but then move the fuck on, and let the issue rest. There's no need to continue the debate from there.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby NeuralStunner » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:29 pm

hardcore_gamer wrote:Pizza tastes better if you are getting what you paid for, because else whatever enjoyment you might have gotten from eating it will be spoiled by the angry feelings of being ripped off.
I'm actually really confused by this metaphor, but I'll assume you're not just stating the obvious "being ripped off is bad". Let's be realistic... Bad pizza is bad pizza, being free isn't going to change that. DLC Quest could be declared freeware tomorrow and it'd still be ugly, unfunny garbage. If it's so poor that any kind of pricetag is a turnoff, then why be so annoyed? It's crap, play something else. If you do still want to play it, then by definition it has value to you.

I admit I don't care for the idea of general commercialization of typical mods. But we're not talking about that. We're clearly talking about total conversions, with all new stuff. To be commercially valid, everything has to be new. Not just resources, but its own concept. (You can't just go publishing an Alien game, after all.) You're going to need the software to make it and the free time to work on it. (Outside your regular job, which you're probably going the gamedev route to get away from.) That's already levels above what a typical free mod is going to do. Literally an entire game.

If the end result is not worth buying to you, fine. You are absolutely entitled to get what you paid for: Nothing.

The sense of entitlement I'm talking about is "I would not want to pay for this, therefore I should have it for free." That is not a good look for a game community.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby wildweasel » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:25 pm

I would put it in the words of Amiga scene group Fairlight: "A game worth playing is a game worth buying!"
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby Kinsie » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:31 am

wildweasel wrote:I would put it in the words of Amiga scene group Fairlight: "A game worth playing is a game worth buying!"
I wonder how often the people who read that phrase followed that rule...
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby Zen3001 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:22 am

hardcore_gamer wrote:Why should I, as a consumer, pay money for your game if it's no better than all the mods I can play?

you're thinking too good about these mods, the fun part of mods to me is seeing what creative ways people can come up with to enhance an allready finished game but I wouldn't consider any of them as good as ion maiden, most of these use a lot of assets from realm667 (kind of like the cheap unity games we all hate) and others are partial coversions that still feel a lot like doom. original total conversion require a lot more work, creating textures, sprites and eventually even 3d polygon or voxel model from scratch takes way more effort and at the end give a way better result.
Last edited by Zen3001 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it ok to create commercial game with ZDoom?

Postby NeuralStunner » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:55 pm

Zen3001 wrote:msot of these use a lot of assets from realm667 (kind of like the cheap unity games we all hate)
This crap again?

There's actually a lot of quality stuff on the site, with improvements still being made. (Ghastly has been overhauling and cleaning a whole lot of things behind the scenes, including learning ZScript so he can update them to that... but of course he's not going to get a lot of credit for it.) That's one of the reasons I quit there: It's utterly thankless. Too much whinging about the alleged plague of lazy modders throwing everything together - and those mods always die off within weeks. Meanwhile, other modders are turned off from using any of it because of the potential backlash. For using free resources that are free to use. It is literally insane.

Here's a mod that uses a lot of Realm667 assets! Are we really going to include that in the same bin?

(Sorry to fly off-topic on a rant. This community has gottent o a point where it's more creative than ever and I really don't understand where these attitudes keep coming from.)
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