2018. It's a pretty rough year.

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Rachael
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2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Rachael »

Political discussion is forbidden on this forum - and that's not going to change, even for this topic. But allow me to bend the rules just SLIGHTLY to discuss a rather concerning issue - and that is that the political climate outside of gaming, in general, has turned very grim lately. We live in a divisive time, and people from all over the world are taking offense to even the smallest slights, whether they identify as left or right, against themselves or their friends. Every action they don't agree with is taken personally, and the narrative is often twisted to victimhood of the person who felt slighted.

Now, people are angry, especially this year - and RIGHTFULLY SO! This is a year that, more than ever, we all feel like our governments are working against us. Whether you identify as a liberal or a conservative, the government just continually seems to keep doing things that you disagree with.

What does that have to do with the forums?

Everything, it turns out. People come here with their anger, channeling it in unproductive ways, sometimes ultimately getting banned. Usually those who find themselves out the quickest are people who self-identify as "right-wingers" or "nazis" - but it happens to people on both sides of the political aisle, there's been some "lefties" who have felt "unfairly banned" as well.

Truth be told - we don't give a god damn fuck what political ideology you agree or identify with, or even if you identify with one at all. All we care about is that you treat people here with respect and decency. For some people, that's a bridge too far, and they take even a request like that as asking too much.

So here is the deal. We sympathize with you, and your anger at the system. We feel it too. But that does not give you the right to take it out on the people of this forum - be they admins, moderators, or just regular users. It doesn't make it right for you to just choose some random people on the internet - people you don't even know - and just right out shit on them.

We have rules on this forum, and in the many years of its existence very little has changed. In fact, it's ALWAYS been a rule that you show at least a modicum of decency, and that rule itself is, ironically, older than some of the members who choose to violate it. And those that do, often find it difficult to come back again.

If you don't like rules - you don't have to stay! Go create your own forum, with your own rules, or even with no rules at all! We are cool with that! But here - we DO have rules, and no amount of you crying about it, violating them, or shaming us for them is going to change it. But here's the thing - more important than the fact that we have rules, is the reason WHY we have rules - and this is always taken into consideration when enforcing them. And that is, quite simply, that we do not believe a community like this can flourish without them. We want to preserve what good aspects we have of this community, and we cannot do that if people continually disrespect each other and be assholes to each other and drive our contributors and artists off. It just can't happen. Sorry, Anarchists - you can't have your cake and eat it, here. It just won't work.

We're not trying to be "mean nasty admins." We're not trying to be "Gods of the internet." We just want a space that's sane and produces good content - as it always has, for the past 20+ years. And we can't do that if we have 12 year olds who keep making up their own rules, which only benefit themselves, and not everyone else. You like mods like Hideous Destructor? You like Guncaster? You can't have those if you drive the authors of those mods away. You can't have those nice things if you drive the primary developers of the game engine away. Be respectful. Be nice. It's REALLY a lot easier than you think.

If you do find yourself getting angry, there's no reason you can't vent. But focus on the subject of your anger - don't blame "libtards", don't blame "neocons", don't blame this or that race, or religion, or what have you. If GZDoom doesn't work - maybe your PC is just broken, and nothing more?

It's utterly ridiculous that it's come to this. But I think we should come together and recognize what we all have in common - a love for gaming, and a love for Doom. I think that's something to celebrate. Let's not pollute it with bullshit that has nothing to do with it, aye? Makes it a lot easier to enjoy - really.
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Zen3001
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Zen3001 »

I think the reason people are becoming so much more opinionated is because of the information sharing capability the internet provides, the people I know personaly are just pretentious, they screech some random opinion they picked from the internet because it makes them feel special.
I really don't understand what they're trying to achieve by annoying everyone with it.
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Trance
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Trance »

I imagine a lot of people find this place suffocatingly uptight by how much gets dumped into the HoU. It surprises me occasionally to see what posts get tossed in the garbage can. There's a different standard of what is considered tolerable discourse here than anywhere else I've been, and it's causing friction with those people who don't slot in perfectly to this environment.

Clashes with the mods are just gonna happen, and they would (and do) happen anyway even with a reasonably laissez-faire moderation policy, just not as much. I can appreciate if the moderation workload you're dealing with has prompted this vent, but I can't honestly say this thread is going to reduce it any.
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by jdredalert »

I've been away in a while, so i wonder what happened to motivate Rachel to make this post? I know she described a lot of possible situations above, but i mean, who did that? What happened over the months i was away?
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Rachael
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Rachael »

Trance wrote:I imagine a lot of people find this place suffocatingly uptight by how much gets dumped into the HoU. It surprises me occasionally to see what posts get tossed in the garbage can. There's a different standard of what is considered tolerable discourse here than anywhere else I've been, and it's causing friction with those people who don't slot in perfectly to this environment.
Look - I have two things to say about that. First - none of those people who feel like they're being forced to follow a mold are being forced to be here. If anyone feels like I, or the moderator team, is too uptight, do another community and do it better.

Secondly - I follow pretty much this standard: If it's a contentious topic, or if people start arguing (without really trying to be reasonable about it), it's a topic that is far more likely to be thrown in. You are free to disagree, and people do - but the difference between the people who do it diplomatically and the people who do it completely irreverently is huge. And I will not brook the excuse "it's the internet, deal with it." That's not an excuse, it's a cheap cop-out and an unwillingness to argue from a more objective perspective.

You don't notice the people who do it diplomatically because the people who don't are far more obvious - and they make themselves way more obvious.

I DO think there are a lot of external influences that fuel's people anger here. It doesn't have to be political (although, it often can be traced in it, even if it's more of a root than a surface cause).
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Bigger C »

My two cents: I honestly feel like the staff here is too lenient, not too strict.

When one of the lead engine devs has publicly insulted users and when some users (could name names but won't unless for constructive criticism purposes the mods ask me to) chronically make bad posts and it takes more than three strikes for the mods to make it crystal clear their behavior is bad I feel like there's no real clear standards of community behavior.

I'm going back to being a ghost for now.
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Trance
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Trance »

Rachael wrote:Look - I have two things to say about that. First - none of those people who feel like they're being forced to follow a mold are being forced to be here. If anyone feels like I, or the moderator team, is too uptight, do another community and do it better.
This is the place where the cool stuff comes out and the talented modders congregate. That's what draws people here. Nobody is going to replicate that. This is the place to be if you're interested in the latest and greatest in Doom engine tech, and that's unlikely to change no matter who tries. So while it is ultimately their choice to sign up and participate here, they don't really have any place else to go to get what the ZDF has to offer. And that element of this place's appeal is separate and distinct from its standards of moderation. Now you could follow this with "Tough, my house, my rules", but if you're looking to reduce the moderation workload, that won't really help you.
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Rachael
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Rachael »

Trance wrote:Now you could follow this with "Tough, my house, my rules", but if you're looking to reduce the moderation workload, that won't really help you.
No. No matter what the moderation workload, I just want people to be decent to one another. That's all.

It's not too much to ask.
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Trance
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Trance »

I suspect we're talking at cross-purposes right now, so I'll bow out.
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Vordenko »

Frankly, I am happy that this community is more strict on certain topics. It makes this community much less toxic and more welcoming.

I think the issue with the political and religious opinions, is that people think "I have freedom of speech, so deal with it" combined with "it's the internet, deal with it" makes for a very toxic combination.

But yeah, overall, I'm glad this forum is strict, and not as horrifying as the Youtube shit hole community.

Also lol, 12 year olds trying to talk about religion and politics.
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by NeuralStunner »

Bigger C wrote:[...] I feel like there's no real clear standards of community behavior.
It seems very clear to me: Rule 1, "Don't be a dick."

Moderation is case-by-case, and - because different people are different - opinions on what's "over the line" will vary. (There is discussion behind the scenes, but that's not always possible and sometimes things need to be addressed immediately.) Trying to implement some kind of "three strikes" or other "by the book" system has, historically, only made things worse. (Sure, it tends to unite the arguing parties in the common cause of yelling at the staff, but... :P )

Plus, we've always been able to "peer review" each other if things smell a little, even if rules haven't even been broken yet:
User 1: "[Really not cool thing]"
User 2: "Woah, not cool."
User 1: "Oh, sorry."
Push moderation policy too hard, and that kind of healthy community interaction is gone - Everything just erupts into arguments over who's backseat moderating who. (Moreover, a mod should be able to just say "not cool", and not in any real official capacity, and leave it at that.) Nobody like shaving to watch their step around da police.
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by ramon.dexter »

Yeah, the politics restriction is s good thing. Politics is a topic that can easily stir up mayhem, so I appreciate this rule. The religion...well, I'm not a religious person at all, some consider me an ateist. But this strict policy on 'no religion at all' ... well, I'm czech. We got lots of saying referring god or thing like that, without any religious context all. So I little bit wondered on local 'totally no religion' policy, even as an atheist.
Honestly, this topic is hard for me to discuss in english, cause I'm not sure if I use the right words. But I can say: when I say 'god damnit', it's really not about god at all. And thats it. So, my opinion is this policy is too much strict, but hey, I'm a guest here and all I have to do is to follow rules and try to be a good guest.
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by wildweasel »

The religion policy is mainly to prevent big arguments - even over a thing as "simple" as asking if a person believes in God can result in a huge negative feedback loop if one person says something out of line, which is why we decided it's better to not have those discussions in the first place.

"If two people want to remain friends, they should never talk about religion or politics."
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ramon.dexter
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by ramon.dexter »

wildweasel wrote:
"If two people want to remain friends, they should never talk about religion or politics."
And that's it.
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Rachael
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Re: 2018. It's a pretty rough year.

Post by Rachael »

If you're worried about being slapped on the wrist for saying "god damn it", that's not likely to happen at all. I think you should be okay letting that slip. It's such a common phrase that there's no point in policing it even if we wanted to, and in the end would do more harm than good.

I'm not going to encourage you to say it, but I doubt anyone's even going to notice it if you do (unless that person is very hardcore religious - in which case, I can only imagine the numerous other difficulties of using the internet for them in that case).
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