Atychiphobia

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Atychiphobia

Postby Rachael » Sun May 13, 2018 3:44 am

"To err is human, but to persist is diabolical."

This is a folly that I have seen a lot of lately, and it is the root of a lot of toxic behavior that I have seen, both first hand, and observing it third-hand as it happens to others.

It is the fear of being wrong, or being told that you are wrong. In some cases, it's even a fear that one's beliefs are not even facts, but rather opinions, even in some cases a perfectly valid one, but the irrational fear makes the holder desperate for it to be fact.

It occurs in a lot of issues. Whether you like triple-A games, or you think major corporations have destroyed the game industry. Whether guns should be legal, or outlawed. Whether Kanye West is a misunderstood genius, or a blubbering idiot. And I won't even mention the run-of-the-mill political stuff because that stuff is the ONLY thing you'll ever see on the news these days, so it really needs no mention. That's a problem, too.

These are polarizing issues - and if you are on one side or another, where you can't back down and TRY to understand the opposing side - YOU are part of the problem. You fit the very definition of atychiphobia - because your strong opinions - your passionately held beliefs - have clouded your ability to see reason. Toxicity does not come from people who disagree with you - it comes from both you and anyone willing to spend more than a minute arguing with you about it.

I remember the day of the September 11th attacks, and how for the first time in a very long time, it finally seemed like everyone in the U.S. was on the same team. How united we were. Because we ALL wanted to bring the masterminds behind that attack to justice - and while we may have had different ideas about how to do so, we were united in our shock and disgust that anyone would ever do such a thing to our society. We actually agreed that the actions those criminals took that day was heinous, and we cried for the victims - together. It was the one day when there were no Democrats or Republicans. And despite the horrific tragedy that befell us that day, it showed that we actually do have the capacity to love one another, and stop being the petulant children we've become since it happened.

Yet, today, we can't even maturely have a conversation over simple issues in a freaking video game, stuff that ultimately does not affect our real lives - because everyone believes they are always right, they can't possibly be wrong, and those who disagree with them are heretics and deserve to be tarred and feathered and paraded around in the public square. Really? What a disgrace.

Look - it's okay to be wrong. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to be - well, you know, a freaking human being. But your pride and your hubris - as the quote says, that's diabolical. That's what makes you evil. That's what makes you toxic. You can't acknowledge that there's a different side. That someone sees things differently. That you aren't right - that you merely have an opinion. And that it's okay to have one. That you don't have to be right all the time.

It's not just this community. This problem is so wide-spread. The crap that spews out into many gaming forums is merely a symptom of a much bigger problem in our society as a whole, not just the games themselves. Over the past couple of decades, we've forgotten every last shred of social grace we've once known. We've forgotten how to be decent human beings to each other. Is it really too much to ask to say "I don't like this" instead of saying "you're an idiot"?

The problem isn't social media bringing massive amounts of people together. All those things ever did was shine a light on it. The problem is - you don't know how to disagree with a stranger and not be a total douche bag about it. The problem is you think everyone else is your enemy - even when they're not. You're so paranoid, so insecure, and you use your pride to mask what you secretly think are your worst qualities as a person - when in fact they may be your best. The thing you should be ashamed of is your fear of being wrong. Your pride. Your atychiphobia.

To some extent - everyone is afraid of being wrong. That's perfectly normal. It's what you do about it that defines how good you are as a person - but trust me when I say, sticking to your guns might be the worst mistake you can make. If you do that, make sure you have a really good reason to do it, and you have external factors that can back that up and prove your case - because a lot of times, people don't. And if you don't - be willing to accept new ideas, be willing to see things in a different light, from a different position, and from another person's shoes. You'd be surprised what you can learn - how you can grow - and how much better of a person you can become.

To put it simply - the world is not as you see it. What you see is an illusion. The truth is - the world is what the world is, and no human in the world has the capacity to understand it fully. Every day, we are all growing, we are all learning new things, and we are all becoming better people. Be a part of that. Be the person you want to be, not the person you think you should be.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Arctangent » Sun May 13, 2018 4:11 am

You're wrong.




yeah sure this quip doesn't actually add anything to anything but it felt necessary to get it out of way immediately rather than someone posting it in the middle of people actually discussing this
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby dpJudas » Sun May 13, 2018 5:16 am

Rachael wrote:The problem isn't social media bringing massive amounts of people together. All those things ever did was shine a light on it. The problem is - you don't know how to disagree with a stranger and not be a total douche bag about it. The problem is you think everyone else is your enemy - even when they're not. You're so paranoid, so insecure, and you use your pride to mask what you secretly think are your worst qualities as a person - when in fact they may be your best. The thing you should be ashamed of is your fear of being wrong. Your pride. Your atychiphobia.

When I partly blame social media it is because it's human nature to hang out with peers we roughly agree with. Social media and the internet allows us create small pockets in the world where your personal bias is in full effect.

Sure, you can argue that this already existed before to some extent, i.e. which news paper you chose to read or what TV station you got your news from, and therefore it isn't new. The difference is that before you didn't have forums, chat rooms and specialized sites that helped you "explain" any kind of information received that didn't fit into your reality distortion field. You also can't see the face of the person providing the information - an important parameter as you lose the ability to discover that its the local city drunken idiot that is now telling you that no plane hit the Pentagon..

I agree with you that you should treat everyone with respect and try to talk nicely with them. Otherwise you certainly won't change a thing. But I have to admit I'm also getting increasingly frustrated that some people seem to "reset" every time you talk to them. It really doesn't matter what I say to a certain co-developer at work, he will continue to believe aliens created the pyramids, the moon landings were fake, CIA/FBI/the world government<tm> faked the 9/11 attack, etc. He got all the proof from the Internet, if you care to see it!

Oh and don't be too happy when a nation truly unites - that's when the waterboarding and Guantanamo camps got created.. when everyone agrees someone is "evil" it seems OK to do anything to them, too. :(
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Jimmy » Sun May 13, 2018 7:28 am

For what it's worth, I love being told that I'm doing something wrong. I relish brutal honesty in criticism. Sometimes the way I do things or create things actually genuinely irks me, like I know I'm missing something vital, then a bout or two of unfiltered feedback from a third party often sets me on the right track.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby leodoom85 » Sun May 13, 2018 8:53 am

Hmm...social media sure does add into the mix of this eternal quest for "beliefs" (which is also a tool to manipulate your opinion btw) but YOU also can decide what to believe and take what's right and what's wrong. Yes, most people will disagree with you for petty things and, as Rachael said, you'll find people with a closed mind that sometimes it's not worth the time to pay attention.
Me? I've been told what I'm wrong, LOTS of times, and decided to take those advices and learn from it. Any people who can't do that, then it won't learn...even if you pray for it....an idiot will always be an idiot...
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Reactor » Sun May 13, 2018 10:16 am

We've been discussing this before, Rachael. Remember the "paid mods are back" topic? Graf Zahl skillfully pointed this phenomenon out, and I asked how do you feel about it. You did answer but you didn't elaborate on it just like now, so I guessed it's not that serious problem. But now it looks to me that the problem escalated. Nevertheless, it was rather interesting to read your thoughts and remarks about it, and no, it does not make you an opinionated asshole - on the contrary!

To answer your question, nowadays it is very hard on "da Intarnetz" to distinguish constructive criticism from trolling. This is something I pointed out in the Tristania3D manual as well - most people just can't really write anything constructive other than the four-letter biological waste word. Which is, of course, anything but helpful for the author of the game reading things like "ZOMG dis game iz teh shit!!!!1!!1!!11ONEONEONEELEVEN!", and obviously he will react to them in the same manner.

There are also many things which are a matter of taste. Some people like AC/DC, some others don't. Some people love to eat corn dogs, others don't like corn dogs at all, and would rather eat some elephant-ears. In this case, both parties are right from their perspective, but neither is right from the others. Uh...maybe I can't really explain it more in-depth, but you get the point.

As for people like Flat Earth idiots, who are clinging onto their ill-founded beliefs, I have no words. Fanatics you can't argue with, and you definitively can't win.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby SouthernLion » Sun May 13, 2018 11:57 am

Rachael wrote:To put it simply - the world is not as you see it. What you see is an illusion. The truth is - the world is what the world is, and no human in the world has the capacity to understand it fully.


I definitely agree with this sentence.

You write a really good post with a lot of points, but there is a such thing as being "too open minded", and sometimes intense passion about something can be for the better, or even 100% necessary. If someone has an opposing view point on video games, cool, let's have a discussion about it. If someone has an opposing view points on sexual assault, for example, your view points mean absolutely nothing to me and they are objectively and dangerously wrong.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Rachael » Sun May 13, 2018 1:23 pm

RexS wrote: If someone has an opposing view points on sexual assault, for example, your view points mean absolutely nothing to me and they are objectively and dangerously wrong.

This is something I agree with. You DO have to draw some lines in the sand. You can't objectively be a good person if you support things like pedophelia, rape, or racism. The whole post was shining a light more on the things that do not matter as much - such as whether X or Y is better for game Z.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby SouthernLion » Sun May 13, 2018 1:24 pm

Rachael wrote:
RexS wrote: If someone has an opposing view points on sexual assault, for example, your view points mean absolutely nothing to me and they are objectively and dangerously wrong.

This is something I agree with. You DO have to draw some lines in the sand. You can't objectively be a good person if you support things like pedophelia, rape, or racism. The whole post was shining a light more on the things that do not matter as much - such as whether X or Y is better for game Z.


Makes total sense. lol.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Nems » Sun May 13, 2018 4:06 pm

This is why I personally don't take part in serious discussions on the internet unless it's for comic relief/shitposting. It's easy to be a cockshit over the internet and spout crap like "lol ur rong" all day when you have anonymity and don't have to look the other person in the face. I've stopped trying to figure out why people feel the need to be a cockshit and just do my own thing.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Shadelight » Sun May 13, 2018 5:35 pm

Nems wrote:This is why I personally don't take part in serious discussions on the internet unless it's for comic relief/shitposting. It's easy to be a cockshit over the internet and spout crap like "lol ur rong" all day when you have anonymity and don't have to look the other person in the face. I've stopped trying to figure out why people feel the need to be a cockshit and just do my own thing.

I'm the same. There's no use arguing about frivolous stuff. Maybe like a few years ago I probably would be arguing in some places but I stopped caring.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Rachael » Sun May 13, 2018 6:26 pm

The problem here, mainly, is that we're so easily divisive about stuff. It's like every time someone has a different perspective, they're automatically the worst person in the world, they're automatically scum, they're automatically stupid, etc. When that's really not true.

Are they wrong? There's only a fraction of the time when that truly happens. It does happen, but not nearly as often as people think. And the whole pigeon-holing and witch hunts is ultimately what's so harmful to all of us. It's the irrational attacks against people just for an opinion.

Ironically, after I made this thread early this morning, Leonard French went and talked about some of the issue here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/260942125

Unfortunately, I think he's going after the symptoms of the issues more than the root causes, which admittedly I am, too, but unfortunately I think the root causes are political, and I don't think that would be a good idea to discuss here.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Reactor » Sun May 13, 2018 7:20 pm

I think we should ask Graf Zahl about this. Back then he had interesting observations, maybe he can fuel-inject a bit here to make you feel better. Being a developer, he also sees a lot of this, perhaps he has some good tips...I don't know...
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby Rachael » Sun May 13, 2018 7:30 pm

Graf perfectly has access to this forum and does not need any notification of the existence of this topic. If he wants to comment, trust and believe that he will, there is no need to hand-hold him towards it.

That being said, I feel like his opinion will either echo mine, or only be slightly different. But that's from what little I know of him from topics he's commented on in the past. I'd be surprised if he really disagrees with me, and without that he ultimately would not help this topic.
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Re: Atychiphobia

Postby insightguy » Sun May 13, 2018 7:44 pm

Geez, I come back just to find some hard hitting philosophical discussion. What a day.

Honestly, I think (edit: one of the) the main problem is... for the lack of a better term... The isolation on people on the internet.

People make communities on the internet and with that come internal standards and taboos. Unfortunately, it's human nature to congregate with people you agree with and kick out those who don't. But people just don't disappear from the internet, they just move.

In the end this makes a sort of an echo chamber developing effect where like minded people eventually find each other and reinforce their beliefs and rejecting the out group, causing more hostility with them and others. What we see today is a product of that.

The irrational part comes when the group gets so isolated that they think they are the majority and crusade aground with their ideology and atack on others, any belief can be used here.

In the end the only way to stop this effect is by taking with other people (one of the reasons why I say though I may disagree with half of you here) and not poisoning the well with hostility ("cuck", "shitlord", "cismale", and other hostile action)

Edit: but then again, people love their echo chambers, so this is a near impossible solution

All views have a grain of truth to them, even if it's atom sized.
Last edited by insightguy on Sun May 13, 2018 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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