"Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby leileilol » Mon May 28, 2018 1:05 am

Arctangent wrote:
NeuralStunner wrote:
Chris wrote:Pandering is nothing more than targeting people's desires.
That specific word is used for a reason. I think the phrase you're looking for is "target audience".

Unless you're insinuating that the devs want to have sex with the people they're aiming towards, that page doesn't particularly support your point.

Words can have multiple definitions. This page is correct. See "Verb: 2" for the use here.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Arctangent » Mon May 28, 2018 1:26 am

leileilol wrote:
Arctangent wrote:
NeuralStunner wrote:That specific word is used for a reason. I think the phrase you're looking for is "target audience".

Unless you're insinuating that the devs want to have sex with the people they're aiming towards, that page doesn't particularly support your point.

Words can have multiple definitions. This page is correct. See "Verb: 2" for the use here.

Yes, I noticed before even posting that.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Chris » Mon May 28, 2018 5:27 am

leileilol wrote:Words can have multiple definitions. This page is correct. See "Verb: 2" for the use here.

I think that's what they're saying. Neural Stunner echoed Zan in saying any sort of pandering ruins the game. I mentioned that pandering is a natural part of making a game you intend to sell, which NS then responded to saying it ("pandering") was deliberately worded and linking to the wikipedia article. Arctangent then pointed out that, unless NS intended to use the sex/prostitution meaning, Verb usage #2 does indeed fit with what I said: "To tempt with, to appeal or cater to ; to assist in the gratification of."

I mean, the entire point of selling a game is to tempt people with it so they buy it, to appeal and cater to people who want that kind of game, and to gratify people who enjoy playing that kind of game.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby NeuralStunner » Mon May 28, 2018 12:10 pm

Arctangent wrote:Unless you're insinuating that the devs want to have sex with the people they're aiming towards, that page doesn't particularly support your point.
Judging by the cleavage-ridden banners on 90% of RPGs being released, I'm not so sure the definition is irrelevant.

Chris wrote:"To tempt with, to appeal or cater to ; to assist in the gratification of."
You missed a space before the semicolon there, where you cut out the part that doesn't support your point. Really though, "tempt" still conveys the idea. There's no need to tempt someone into an action unless they have good reason for avoiding, E.G spending $10-60 on shallow garbage. If your product is good, you don't need to pander, tempt, or oversell. You can still appeal to a particular audience without using shady practices. That is why this particular word is used in these situations.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Amuscaria » Mon May 28, 2018 4:29 pm

Kinsie wrote:Dusk's artwork is the 3D equivalent of this:Image


Dusk's graphics are almost on par with Quakes, IMO. And seeing it's done by a single guy (aside from the music), I'm willing to overlook the lack of artistic finesse.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Arctangent » Mon May 28, 2018 4:40 pm

NeuralStunner wrote:unless they have good reason for avoiding, E.G spending $10-60

I think this sentence can stop right there, considering just making a good game tempts people who don't have the best income into grabbing it despite not being the wisest purchase.

So looking at it this way, not even good games avoid pandering, because quality will pander to people who have better things to do with their time or money. Heck, there's a reason why there's that myth where Square Enix can only release Dragon Quest games on a certain day of the week in Japan due to the series being big enough over there that it's believable that it hinders productivity and education.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby NeuralStunner » Mon May 28, 2018 6:03 pm

Well yes, you can always make a case that everybody does a thing if you redefine what it means to do that thing. The sort of people that mistake outcome for intent are usually found preaching that M-rated video games are making kids violent. I work in a store, am I responsible for tempting someone into spending their food money on a DVD player? :shrug:

(Rhetorical. I've said all I can say on this rabbit trail.)

Amuscaria wrote:Dusk's graphics are almost on par with Quakes, IMO.
This was the impression I got as well. Not that it isn't just a little overdone, but it seems like they at least got the gameplay sharpened before they painted it, so to speak.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Arctangent » Mon May 28, 2018 6:07 pm

NeuralStunner wrote:I work in a store, am I responsible for tempting someone into spending their food money on a DVD player? :shrug:

Depends, are you in charge of advertising the store in such a way that exploits human psychology? Because then yeah, I'd say so - and game teams absolutely do that, because otherwise what would the point of advertising be in this day and age?
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Matt » Mon May 28, 2018 7:17 pm

Not to denigrate DUSK at all, but Quake looks much, much, better. Whatever you might say about the kitchen-sink shoddy excuse for worldbuilding, Quake's aesthetic is very consistent and unified in a way that makes DUSK look amateurish in comparison. Might be that Quake was completely committed to the rusty old Lovecraftian horror thing while DUSK was trying to combine a very wide range of themes.

But then again, when one compares the weapon models...
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Chris » Mon May 28, 2018 7:37 pm

NeuralStunner wrote:You missed a space before the semicolon there, where you cut out the part that doesn't support your point.

I cut it out because it was irrelevant, and I knew would distract from the point. "(improper motivations, etc.)" That 'etc' is et cetera, which basically means "and more..". It's a non-exhaustive list, so it shouldn't be taken as the only meaning. But even then, given all the other meanings of the word pander, this implies "improper motivations" is on the part of the product or service (illicit sex or some other kind of sinful act), rather than the seller. Colloquially, we use this word for any kind of product or service you could do without (being liberal with gluttony or sloth).

Really though, "tempt" still conveys the idea. There's no need to tempt someone into an action unless they have good reason for avoiding, E.G spending $10-60 on shallow garbage.

Or spending $10-60 at all. If someone asks me to hand over money, my default reaction isn't to just give it to them just because. They need to give me a reason, they have to make a tempting offer. And presuming they're offering a product in return, I use the information available about the product to decide if it's appealing. I don't assume what they want to give me will cater to my tastes.

If your product is good, you don't need to pander, tempt, or oversell. You can still appeal to a particular audience without using shady practices. That is why this particular word is used in these situations.

You're conflating meaning. Pander doesn't mean to oversell or use shady practices in selling. It means to tempt, appeal with, or cater a product or service that, ultimately in the long run, doesn't matter. No individual piece of media ultimately matters, therefore, attempting to sell such a piece of media is pandering; it's catering to people who find such media tempting or appealing, even though they don't strictly need it.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby insightguy » Mon May 28, 2018 9:22 pm

In the end, "Pandering" is only bad if it has nothing to back it up (A.K.A. everything else like game-play, aesthetics, or story) and used as a crutch as a way to make the game stand out. Pandering is fine if it's used as a stool not a crutch.

Doom 2016 IMHO was basically one of the biggest panders in the AAA to the old-school FPS crowd I've seen in a while and everyone loved it like Sunday ice cream on a hot summers day because it was good, the pander just pushed it to greater heights.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Matt » Tue May 29, 2018 2:26 pm

And if the pandering itself is not something vile. (If your mother, spouse, priest, etc. walked in on you playing the game, would they think you were viewing pornography or some kind of right-wing militant-fascist propaganda (assuming that was not the actual intention)?)

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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby insightguy » Tue May 29, 2018 8:07 pm

Matt wrote:pornography or some kind of right-wing militant-fascist extreme propaganda

Honestly any propaganda (A.K.A. Political pandering) extreme enough can basically ruin the experience of any game no matter what area on the political spectrum.

Matt wrote:mother, spouse, priest, etc. walked in on you playing the game,

I'd argue 50% of all games would give them a heart attack one way or another, if it's not porn or propaganda, it can be:
  • Magic
  • Gratuitous Violence
  • Horror
  • Gratuitous Magical Horror Violence (*cough* silent hill *cough*)
  • Overkill
  • Criminal activities
  • SOUTH PARK IN GENERAL (EDIT: just to ensure I don't get in hot water)
  • Orwellian alternate universes
  • A crap ton of Freudian themes
and all the other fictional shit that can make for fun times.
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby Matt » Tue May 29, 2018 9:25 pm

I singled out the military-industrial-complex fascist right because that's where AAA shooters tend to go if they go anywhere. And it doesn't have to be extreme, either, just a tacit endorsement of what makes a man a man according to the assumptions of the story being told.

And fwiw my priest is a gamer himself, as I assume are a few other people here's priests, spouses or mothers, and having such persons walk in on you watching any of those is nothing on the same social level as them walking in on you watching porn!
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Re: "Nostalgia Pandering" - Does it ruin games for you?

Postby insightguy » Tue May 29, 2018 10:16 pm

Matt wrote:I singled out the military-industrial-complex fascist right because that's where AAA shooters tend to go if they go anywhere. And it doesn't have to be extreme, either, just a tacit endorsement of what makes a man a man according to the assumptions of the story being told.

I honestly don't know how you can equate dude-bro shooters as pro-fascistic fiction but whatever. Just make sure that you're not chasing ghosts. AAA shooters may not be the best in game-play or story but how you see AAA shooters as fascist propaganda is frankly beyond me considering most of them basically have the protagonists go against said industrial-complex in the latter chapters.

Just be careful with the mindset is all I'm saying lest you blame things like XCOM, Mario, or even fucking FARMVILE for fueling the right-wing propaganda

Matt wrote:And fwiw my priest is a gamer himself, as I assume are a few other people here's priests, spouses or mothers, and having such persons walk in on you watching any of those is nothing on the same social level as them walking in on you watching porn!

I did not say that porn was on the same level as what I listed, but I would think that playing silent hill or gears of war is not exactly going to win any points with people watching you play it what with all the chainsaw murder and Freudian shit respectively.

I'll stop here as going this route seems to be going real political.

Attempting to go back on topic, bloodstained: circle of the moon just came out and seems to be nice, is this a good example of nostalgia pandering?
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